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Naval Pass thru - 6/15/2017 9:19:31 PM   
Guderian1940

 

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Still a major problem with Naval units passing thru enemy units. Every time regardless of enemy strength, naval type and friendly naval size, type, you lose a point. This is ridiculous it need to be adjusted. Very annoying. Sometimes when the strength and type warrants it. But not a general take a loss if you dot it situation. These details really make a game annoying.
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RE: Naval Pass thru - 6/17/2017 12:04:35 AM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Hi Guderian1940, as it is a new feature it is definitely still open to debate, to an extent, on just how everyone would like to see it implemented.

Initially we were quite comfortable with the implementation as it now allows you to pass through enemy units which is something that was not previously an option, and so a potential strength point loss seemed fair enough at 50%.

But perhaps we can also consider the unit strength versus the enemy unit strength and I'll discuss with Bill to see if we can decide on something that makes sense and keeps the feel of the game about right.

Hubert

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RE: Naval Pass thru - 6/17/2017 12:25:24 AM   
Guderian1940

 

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Thank you for your response. I only ask that qualifiers like strength and type be part of the decision for loss. You say there is a 50% chance. Based on my experience it appears to be 99%. I think I only saw once a pass through not causing a casualty. Forces me to move my units one hex at a time and that takes a long time. A reasonable loss chance would be welcome and acceptable.

Perhaps the unit being passed through should have a chance of taking losses. With the stated qualifies included.

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RE: Naval Pass thru - 6/17/2017 9:13:24 AM   
Bill Runacre

 

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In an earlier version the chance was 100% but it was recently corrected to 50%.

I think we need to be careful about reducing the chance of damage too far, as passing through the enemy fleet should always involve a noticeable risk. A 50% chance of losing 1 strength point isn't much, but it may be enough to make a player think again before doing so, and it does have the advantage of being easy to explain and remember.

Even a more nuanced approach that takes into account say vessel type and strength would not always be the answer, as supply, morale, readiness and upgrades also factor into normal combat results, so it could be argued that they should be taken into account here too.

The question is whether we want to go down that route, as it could effectively lead to only superior units being able to pass through enemy units, with the remainder suffering heavily when doing so... unless the strength loss remains 1 point, but one could argue that that also isn't realistic.

Bill

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RE: Naval Pass thru - 6/18/2017 1:42:26 AM   
Leadwieght

 

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I don't mind the new rule that passing through an enemy naval unit might cause a bit of damage, but I agree with Guderian that the % chance seems rather high.

Also, I have noticed that the pass-through damage can be caused by TRANSPORT units, even low-strength ones. This seems wrong. I know that a transport unit represents some minimal escort vessels as well as the troopships, but a transport unit should not be able to cause damage to an enemy warship in this way. Maybe passing through a Transport unit's sea hex should cost some Action Points (to represent the need to expend fuel and time avoiding contact), but not damage. IMO.


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RE: Naval Pass thru - 6/18/2017 7:30:24 AM   
Amadeus

 

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It feels like that Naval Movement and Combat were corrected most at all. I did not really know how it works now. Maybe it makes sense but I had to take in mind too many rules that are not at the same place. Maybe somebody could collect all basic things together. Naval essential guide or something...

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RE: Naval Pass thru - 6/18/2017 6:07:22 PM   
Guderian1940

 

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Obviously the original 100% was poorly thought out. 50% is poorly thought out.

Of course morale, supply etc are taken into account and I believe that reflects a unit readiness. I am still getting use to the nomenclature of this game which is very different then the hundreds of games I have played through the years. Please bear with me.

Anything that is reasonable is good.

Why should not a strong unit pass through a weaker unit with a minimal chance of damage. Again the results of any action should be reasonable and understandable not the current poor results. One shoe does not fit all. if an average shoe size is nine well you have a problem with anyone over nine which may be 50% of the situation. Averages do not work well under any scrutiny. IMHO :-)



< Message edited by Guderian1940 -- 6/18/2017 6:10:02 PM >

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RE: Naval Pass thru - 6/19/2017 4:55:44 AM   
Amadeus

 

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...should be reasonable and understandable...

OK but who knows all rules. Only if the player could play it intuitive it is worth. Sometimes I am in front of the screen and it feels like, "Oh, ah, this is new. Now it is this way"

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RE: Naval Pass thru - 6/19/2017 6:44:36 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Hi Guderian,

For the record it was never intended to be a 100% chance, this was an unfortunate error that I left in place while testing the functionality for I believe one of the Beta releases. If you are playing an official release version that has this error in place then I would suggest updating to the latest release version as it has since been corrected.

I've also just removed the ability of Transports to inflict damage as we agree with this oversight as well. As to changing the possibility of a unit receiving damage at less than 50%, or due to other factors, we are still thinking about it and would like to hear back from others as well before committing to any change.

One main reason is that as mentioned before, previously units could not pass through enemy units at all, and this also did not take into account readiness, strength, morale etc., and now players have a choice and you don't have to attempt to pass through an enemy unit if you prefer not to.

But with this new ability, we do feel that there needs to be some potential consequences of a cut and run through a line of enemy naval units, and even weakened enemy naval units could arguably have the chance to cause potential damage to a fleeing unit in this manner.

We'll continue to monitor this thread or any similar as we move forward and go from there,
Hubert



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RE: Naval Pass thru - 6/19/2017 10:06:15 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Hi Amadeus,

Here is the list of all recent naval rule changes, I hope this helps!

- Carriers can now raid a convoy from within its strike range, except for convoys starting from a currently Neutral country.
- adjusted the potential losses calculation for Subs that are attacked while in Silent mode. Results will still be 50% damage but they will be rounded up instead of down.
- Subs no longer receive any combat bonuses for being in Silent mode while in Port.
- Subs in Silent mode will no longer be hidden from general spotting under fog of war while in Port.
- naval units in Naval Cruise mode will now only reveal hidden units from its final destination position and no longer along its movement path.
- Coastal Guns can now surprise Amphibious Transports and conduct automatic defensive fire much like capital ships can when adjacent to a coastal landing area.
- naval units that are surprised by a hidden enemy unit will no longer be reduced to 0 action points, remaining action points divided by 5 will now apply with the following exceptions:
-- naval units in cruise mode will still be reduced to 0 action points.
-- Subs in Silent mode will be reduced to remaining action points divided by 2.
- naval units that have engaged in combat will now have their action points reduced to remaining action points divided by 2.
- naval units can now pass through enemy naval units but may suffer a 50% chance of a 1 strength point loss for doing so.
- Subs in Silent mode will now have that mode displayed on the unit whether it is a friendly or enemy unit.
- Subs that are attacked while running in Silent mode, will now have their potential losses reduced by 50%.
- Subs that are attacked while running in Silent mode will have their defensive return fire effectiveness reduced by 50% with no hits possible against attacking aircraft.

Hubert

< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 6/19/2017 10:07:29 PM >


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RE: Naval Pass thru - 6/20/2017 3:45:57 PM   
Amadeus

 

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Great, thank you. Many rules beside the basics. But I will take that in mind.

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