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Why Bother - 6/14/2017 4:46:35 AM   
56ajax


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So it is turn 12, and at last I see a Rumanian Cav Brigade I can have a crack at.

So I bomb it twice killing 39 and 42 respectively. (I micro manage the Red Air Force).

Then I deliberate attack with 2 divs, odds come out at 12:1, I force a retreat, and kill, wait for it, 4. (I lost 294.)

I assume they fell off their horse during the retreat.

There is no value for the Soviet in attacking and makes for a very boring game.

Please give us some incentive to play historically.
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RE: Why Bother - 6/14/2017 6:58:51 AM   
Stelteck

 

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Winning fight will give your divisions guard status

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RE: Why Bother - 6/14/2017 9:00:47 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


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1) It gives you guard units if you collected enough victories.
2) You can get okish loss ratios by attacking if you put the retreat path under ZOC, force retreat over a river or over multiple hexagons due to overstacking. Especially German artillery seems to suffer retreat losses, which will increase the man to gun ratio over time (ask Dinglir :) )
3) After an attack you can bomb a unit again 2 times. It will have detection level 10, high fatigue and no fort level, which makes it a juicy target.
4) Attacks can restore the cohesion of the defence line, e.g. if you push a bridghead back over the river.
5) There are some "magic" morale values which make a unit pay 2 instead of 3 MPs to enter an enemy hexagon. Its 81 for infantry and 86 for motorized units. With some luck you can push the German units below the limit with a counterattack.

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 6/14/2017 9:02:08 AM >

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RE: Why Bother - 6/14/2017 10:52:28 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Winning fight will give your divisions guard status

Which gives you extra admin doesn't it? perhaps throwing paper clips might get the kill count up to 5.

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RE: Why Bother - 6/14/2017 11:11:21 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

1) It gives you guard units if you collected enough victories.
2) You can get okish loss ratios by attacking if you put the retreat path under ZOC, force retreat over a river or over multiple hexagons due to overstacking. Especially German artillery seems to suffer retreat losses, which will increase the man to gun ratio over time (ask Dinglir :) )
3) After an attack you can bomb a unit again 2 times. It will have detection level 10, high fatigue and no fort level, which makes it a juicy target.
4) Attacks can restore the cohesion of the defence line, e.g. if you push a bridghead back over the river.
5) There are some "magic" morale values which make a unit pay 2 instead of 3 MPs to enter an enemy hexagon. Its 81 for infantry and 86 for motorized units. With some luck you can push the German units below the limit with a counterattack.


1) agree gives you extra admin
2) agree, but this is turn 12, and not appropriate for this stage of the game as to advance means encirclement.
3) of course i did that and it killed only 25 (keep this a secret but best bombing results are achieved by having a division next to the unit you are bombing)
4) true
5) hope so

The point I am making is that 20k soldiers, 200 art and 10 afv attacking at odds of 12 to 1 kills 4. This is pure unadulterated fat free bull manure. 60 odd tactical bombers kill 5, go figure.



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RE: Why Bother - 6/14/2017 11:37:46 AM   
Stelteck

 

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quote:


Which gives you extra admin doesn't it? perhaps throwing paper clips might get the kill count up to 5.


Guard rifle divisions have +10 morale and a new dedicated better equiped table of equipment.
55xp Guard rifle divisions have twice the combat value of regular 45XP rifle division.

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RE: Why Bother - 6/14/2017 1:30:27 PM   
Dinglir


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You need also to look at how much ammunition, leadership, terrain etc your attacking units have. The mechanics specify that each element, in turn, will:

1) attempt to get into position to fire
2) try to hit an opposing element
3) calculate the effect of any hits.

Low ammo, terrible leadership, fortification levels etc can kill off any attack in early 41. I remember wathcing the detailed attack reports some while ago, when I attacked a German Panzer Regiment with five Soviet divisions. I noticed how the soviets advanced against withering German fire and looked very much forward to the time when it was the soviet turn to fire back. When the time came, it turned out, there were no soviets still in good order capable of firing at all. Result was that my attack faltered with some 3.000 losses for nothing.

I guess in your case, the 2.000 men of the Rumanian cavalry brigade sat in a plains hex and basically saw 20.000 Soviet soldiers appear on the horizon, screaming "Urrah" while advancing on foot. The Rumanians then (wisely) decided to stay out of reach of the Soviets and simply withdrew.

Your four losses were probably the four people in the brigade without a sense of direction.


_____________________________

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RE: Why Bother - 6/14/2017 3:38:45 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: johntoml56
3) of course i did that and it killed only 25 (keep this a secret but best bombing results are achieved by having a division next to the unit you are bombing)


Because of the detection level

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RE: Why Bother - 6/15/2017 5:26:07 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

quote:


Which gives you extra admin doesn't it? perhaps throwing paper clips might get the kill count up to 5.


Guard rifle divisions have +10 morale and a new dedicated better equiped table of equipment.
55xp Guard rifle divisions have twice the combat value of regular 45XP rifle division.



Just to clarify the morale bonus increases the max morale capacity by 10 points from eg 45 to 55. There appears to be no difference in the TOE for a Guards vs Non Guards Rifle Division.

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RE: Why Bother - 6/15/2017 10:31:20 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Most TO&Es of combat units change over time. Initially the TO&E of a 41a guards rifle division and a 41b rifle division are indeed the same. In December 1941 both TO&E's change and are still the same. In March 1942 however, you will see a difference.

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RE: Why Bother - 6/16/2017 5:27:26 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Most TO&Es of combat units change over time. Initially the TO&E of a 41a guards rifle division and a 41b rifle division are indeed the same. In December 1941 both TO&E's change and are still the same. In March 1942 however, you will see a difference.

With 20,000 reds only killing 4 I dont like my chances of seeing 1942.

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RE: Why Bother - 6/16/2017 11:05:08 AM   
robinsa


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Sounds like you need to focus on how to defend and not attack. As far as an incentive to play "historically" can you please give me an example of a Russian counter offensive that was successful before the winter of 41? If not it would appear that what you're experiencing is rather historical. That being said, I hope the VP system changes in WITE2 so that there is a good incentive to hold cities for "just one more turn". This could generate some of the suicidal defense with large pockets we've been lacking in MP.

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RE: Why Bother - 6/16/2017 12:00:36 PM   
MarauderPL

 

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What happened here is the exact opposite of historical, johnntoml actually got the hex (successful offensive) with minimal german/romanian losses. What happened historically, were heavy (heavier for the soviets, but still) losses for both sides with axis (usually) holding their ground. Of course there are probably many incidents in both history and gameplay with many different outcomes.

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RE: Why Bother - 6/16/2017 12:08:47 PM   
Stelteck

 

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There was a lot of soviet "successfull", at least at start, offensive in 1941. Like in august 1941 3 soviet armies manage to disrupt the german march to Leningrad for 3 weeks around Staraïa Roussa.

They never succeeded in long term because the germans reacted quickly and the soviet did not manage to follow up, replenish their troops and exploits their early success. So their attack force were crushed.

I'am not sûre you can perform such an offensive in the game against a good german player . Except for the part "getting crushed" of course.
3 weeks is 3 turns in game, it is quite long. Maybe you can disrupt the offensive 2 weeks. (The first turn you are encercled, the second destroyed ).

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 6/16/2017 1:34:12 PM >

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RE: Why Bother - 6/17/2017 4:00:27 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: robinsa

Sounds like you need to focus on how to defend and not attack. As far as an incentive to play "historically" can you please give me an example of a Russian counter offensive that was successful before the winter of 41? If not it would appear that what you're experiencing is rather historical. That being said, I hope the VP system changes in WITE2 so that there is a good incentive to hold cities for "just one more turn". This could generate some of the suicidal defense with large pockets we've been lacking in MP.


(where is that one tank that mauled a Panzer division when you need it)

Well as they say in the 'classifieds' I will have a crack at this. By June 23 the Germans realised that this was a different war as in the West - some of the enemy fought back to the death. From memory they held out for 3 weeks in the fortress at BL, which i admit is not a counter offensive.

Lets just say that the Germans called off their drive on Leningrad because they were exhausted by the constant Russian counter attacks. And to be fair the game does have attrition that simulates this.

I have played a couple of historical games and my defense was very good in those but when they do the large Lvov pocket and get their HQBUs going etc I am in big trouble. In that situation I could just run away and perhaps someone could develop a retreat app to do this (and march reinforcements east) for me and I could get active again at T17.

What I am really trying to say is that the game has to be interesting/ hopeful/ entertaining for both players and I am still really pissed that a squadron of like 10 IL2s can kill more of the enenmy than a 2 div counter attack that forces a retreat.

Cultural Note : I am using the word pissed in its US meaning of angry and not the Australian as in drunk.

< Message edited by johntoml56 -- 6/17/2017 4:23:08 AM >

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RE: Why Bother - 6/17/2017 4:58:33 AM   
Hermann

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: robinsa

Sounds like you need to focus on how to defend and not attack. As far as an incentive to play "historically" can you please give me an example of a Russian counter offensive that was successful before the winter of 41? If not it would appear that what you're experiencing is rather historical. That being said, I hope the VP system changes in WITE2 so that there is a good incentive to hold cities for "just one more turn". This could generate some of the suicidal defense with large pockets we've been lacking in MP.


Elnya


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RE: Why Bother - 6/17/2017 5:01:08 AM   
Hermann

 

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yelnya_Offensive

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RE: Why Bother - 6/17/2017 10:38:04 AM   
glvaca

 

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If you have the stomach for it you should read Glatz's 3 volume "Barbarossa derailed"
In a nutshell: although the Germans did capture Smolensk and claim to have captured 100K+ prisoners, the Russians launched no less than 3 offensives to relieve the trapped troops. Indeed, the Germans never really succeeded in completely closing the gap and suffered heavy losses.
I suppose it's what you call a success...

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RE: Why Bother - 6/17/2017 12:36:51 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
If you have the stomach for it you should read Glatz's 3 volume "Barbarossa derailed"
In a nutshell: although the Germans did capture Smolensk and claim to have captured 100K+ prisoners, the Russians launched no less than 3 offensives to relieve the trapped troops. Indeed, the Germans never really succeeded in completely closing the gap and suffered heavy losses.
I suppose it's what you call a success...


The lesson I took from Glantz's and other's work was that by then the Axis offensive had stalled and motorised units were being used almost only tactically and for firefighting gaps. What changed was the decision to pull 2 Panzer Group out and send it South through a soft spot and on to the encirclement of Kiev. This huge hole in the Soviet front then led to a further collapse of the Soviet lines. This was very much at Hitler's insistence over his generals. The alternative history would have been lines stabilising round about where they were in September/October. A completely different take from the Hitler "stopped the march on Moscow and lost the war" line often advocated.

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RE: Why Bother - 6/18/2017 12:07:18 AM   
robinsa


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I will have to admit I did not read the first post properly and it seems I missed the point with the Germans taking no losses despite a Soviet victory. That is a problem agreed.

As for Soviet counter attacks in 41' there were plenty as you have shown but Ive always understood their impact and scale as limited. Granted I am no expert on the subject and might be mistaken here. Ive understood Soviet offensives in 41' as local and used to delay the enemy. Translated to the game: you should be able to retake a hex or two once in a while when the German player makes a mistake but not any larger counter offensives.

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RE: Why Bother - 6/18/2017 5:24:44 AM   
Hermann

 

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bear in mind the german army that went into Russia in 41. The expansion of 40-41 broke the army back and the replacement system was operating at peacetime levels. The officer corps from colonel up was mostly semi-retired ww1 reservists and the transport pool was almost as bad as the pool of trained drivers and mechanics. remember Germany was not even motorized until the 30s and most german troops had never seen a car until they joined the army. the game unfortunately cant reflect the real nature of the struggle but I think the designers nmeed to take a closer look at combat supply cost to greater reflect the historical rate of consumption on defense and make these hopeless attacks more relevant and effective.

http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000033.html

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RE: Why Bother - 6/18/2017 5:27:57 AM   
Hermann

 

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Originally posted by Anders E.Frankson:

Changes in production
German armoured Vehicles Production in tonnes
1940 - 37 235
1941 - 83 188 increase by 223%
1942 - 140 454 increase by 169%
1943 - 369 416 increase by 263%
1944 - 622 322 increase by 168%

Thus in weight the Production 1940 amounts to 6% of the Production 1944.

But regarding the industrial “demobilization” one should not look on the production of armoured vehicles as after Poland and France the Panzertruppe had become the weapon of the future. Several new Panzerdivisions as Rich wrote were formed.

A more interesting aspect is the production of shells for the artillery.
1940 – 20 290 000
1941 – 9 400 000 a decrease of 54%
1942 – 32 500 000
1943 – 56 000 000
1944– 67 600 000

Same applies to ammunition-production to small-arms, 1940 - 2 952 500 000 rounds while 1941 – 1 343 700 000. And the ammunition-production for tankguns and AT-guns was cut with 50% 1941 compared to 1940. The exception was ammunition for heavy AA-guns which rose with 420%.


Anders


Anders, this is all very true, but one reason I focused on the expansion of the AFV production program was because it's initial growth spurt was at least partly responsible for the decrease in ammunition production. In other words, they robbed Peter to pay Paul, largely due to continuing restrictions in the production of raw steel. This effect is discussed to some length in "Consumption of Ammunition by Land Forces Since 1939" the Bundeswehr study from 1986. In 1940 it was decided at the highest levels (likely the OKW Fuehrungsstab) to shift raw materiel priorities from ammunition production to production of armaments (i.e., guns, tanks, submarines, and aircraft), even though the OKH and especially 6 Abteilung/General Stabes des Heeres recommended against it (the Army had not acheived its pre-war planning stockpile of 4 combat months - 40 combat days - of ammunition), and even though the OKW's own WiRustAmt in July 1940, ordered a reexamination of ammunition production requirements be done based upon the experience of the French Campaign! This was completed and published in a memo of 28 August 1940, which declared the intention was to develop a 12-month stockpile (i.e. at least 4 times the existing stockpile!) for a 180 division field army and the equivalent of 20 divisions in the replacement army - in other words, a larger army - and to have it all done by 1 April 1941. Of course that proved to be impossible, so the army went into the Russian Campaign with stockpiles that were proportionately slightly smaller than those available at the start of the French Campaign.

Complicating all of this was that the pre-war expectation was that most ammunition production would be done by small factories throughout Germany, as had happened in World War I. They then rationalized that this meant that modern facilities and machinery were not required for the wartime expansion of ammunition production - despite numerous memos from the technical staffs that said exactly the opposite.

So what does this tell us? Quite possibly the most important thing may be that it highlights just how poor the German military, political and economic leadership was at long-term strategic (or even mid-term operational) planning. And just how bad they were at interservice (and it appears even intraservice and intradepartmental) planning coordination. It appears that this may have been the one area that Speer's appointement and the "carte blanche" he was given over industrial coodination did have an impact.

quoted from the above link

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RE: Why Bother - 6/20/2017 5:24:53 PM   
Soviet_Union

 

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This game has a heavy Axis bias. Soviet units are completely useless and unrealistic.

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RE: Why Bother - 6/23/2017 1:53:56 AM   
56ajax


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In another game T5, I opened a pocket by attacking a Mot Regiment (breakdown of 14th Mot Div), forcing a retreat at odds of 2.27:1, and drum roll please, wait for it....killed 4. 4 must be my number.

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RE: Why Bother - 6/23/2017 8:28:59 AM   
morvael


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Possible interpretation: they have seen your superior numbers and decided to use their mobility to withdraw before real battle started, and your clumsy formations weren't able to pursue properly.

Retreat or hold depends on abstract combat power (CV) remaining after firefight. Losses come from firefight (Soviets have a lot of penalties here in early war, in general better troops are better at hitting), and combat resolution phase (Soviets have a lot of penalties here in early war, in general better troops have lower retreat losses). With this system it's absolutely possible to force a retreat while causing no casualties to the enemy and suffering a lot casualties yourself. They are sort of detached.

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RE: Why Bother - 6/23/2017 11:39:59 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
With this system it's absolutely possible to force a retreat while causing no casualties to the enemy and suffering a lot casualties yourself. They are sort of detached.


It is also quite historical - capturing ground and casualties do not always correlate. Was it the Romans who coined the term Pyrrhic victory after fighting the Greek general?

(in reply to morvael)
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