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Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany

 
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Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 6/2/2017 4:04:55 PM   
Searry

 

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I was thinking of doing HQ Buildup for the tanks of AGS, but I tried different hexes with the same result and even in Germany, they won't do it. I thought the rule was 16 hexes away from rail? What the hell is up?
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RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 6/2/2017 4:33:49 PM   
lowsugar

 

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20 hexes. Units must have 25 % mp left.

(in reply to Searry)
Post #: 2
RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 6/2/2017 4:40:00 PM   
Searry

 

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So the manual is wrong again...

(in reply to lowsugar)
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RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 6/2/2017 4:50:58 PM   
lowsugar

 

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Check scenario and design forum. Condensed rules topic 3rd on top.

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Post #: 4
RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 6/2/2017 5:04:12 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 680
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
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Just tested&updated it:

HQ buildup:
The following conditions have to be met to allow HQ buildup for a unit.
1. Hexagon distance unit-HQ: <6hexagons
2. MP distance eligible HQ-railhead: <81MPs
3. Hexagon distance HQ-railhead: <21hexagons
4. Unit MPs left>1/4*(MP at the beginning of the players turn) rounded down
5. HQ MPs left>1/4*(MP at the beginning of the players turn) rounded down
6. HQ must not have done a HQ buildup last turn.
7. An attached combat unit must not have done a HQ buildup last turn (if not fulfilled, this only excludes the particular unit from the HQ buildup)
8. HQ must not exceed its command limit.
AP cost dependence:
1. Distance from railhead
2. Men in unit
Effects:
1. Resupply to 125%+MP/maxMP*75% at HQ buildup activation
2. Penalties (range to rail, MP to rail, Axis rail modifier, global vehicle shortage and unit vehicle shortage) are halved, fuel and truck cost doubled
3. HQ buildup is executed during the logistics phase



Comment: Let me emphasize that it is not 1/4 of the Max MP but 1/4 of the MP at the beginning of the turn!
A Panzer division with 1MP can very well do a HQ BU if it had 4MP at the beginning of your turn which makes sense in my opinion.

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 6/3/2017 10:24:32 PM >

(in reply to lowsugar)
Post #: 5
RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 6/3/2017 8:16:05 AM   
Searry

 

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This is too difficult to understand... Does this mean I need to leave 1/4 MPs for the next turn to HQBU?

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 6
RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 6/3/2017 10:35:30 AM   
lowsugar

 

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You start your turn, have Pz division with 40 MP and it's HQ with 40MP. If you move both HQ and Pz div and use 30 MP, you will have 10 MP left ( 1/4 ). You shoudl be able to do HQBU this turn and have full gas tanks next turn.

(in reply to Searry)
Post #: 7
RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 6/3/2017 5:55:59 PM   
No idea

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Just tested&updated it:

HQ buildup:
The following conditions have to be met to allow HQ buildup for a unit.
1. Hexagon distance unit-HQ: <6hexagons
2. MP distance eligible HQ-railhead: <81MPs
3. Hexagon distance HQ-railhead: <21hexagons
4. HQ MPs left>1/4*MP at the beginning of the players turn rounded down
5. HQ MPs left>1/4*MP at the beginning of the players turn rounded down
6. HQ must not have done a HQ buildup last turn.
7. An attached combat unit must not have done a HQ buildup last turn (if not fulfilled, this only excludes the particular unit from the HQ buildup)
8. HQ must not exceed its command limit.
AP cost dependence:
1. Distance from railhead
2. Men in unit
Effects:
1. Resupply to 125%+MP/maxMP*75% at HQ buildup activation
2. Penalties (range to rail, MP to rail, Axis rail modifier, global vehicle shortage and unit vehicle shortage) are halved, fuel and truck cost doubled
3. HQ buildup is executed during the logistics phase


Comment: Let me emphasize that it is not 1/4 of the Max MP but 1/4 of the MP at the beginning of the turn!
A Panzer division with 1MP can very well do a HQ BU if it had 4MP at the beginning of your turn which makes sense in my opinion.


This should be stickied. Every month there is at least one question regarding buildups

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 8
RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 6/3/2017 6:06:30 PM   
Telemecus


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Indeed I would nominate a "EwaldvonKleist's proper guide and manual to WitE" to be stickied.

[Although in this case 4 and 5 are repeats and probably one was meant to refer to to units rather than HQs?]

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/3/2017 6:07:30 PM >

(in reply to No idea)
Post #: 9
RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 6/3/2017 10:28:48 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 680
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
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@Searry;
quote:

This is too difficult to understand... Does this mean I need to leave 1/4 MPs for the next turn to HQBU?

As a student of math, I take the first thing as a compliment. The second part however implies lacking precision in my description which hits a mathematician into the heart :)

@no idea: I have collected far more than this in the how supply works thread. I plan to update this with some other stuff and maybe then this should be stickied. The current version is rather incomplete and contains minor mistakes.
I also did an in detail map for optimized German rail conversion/HQ BU ranges by turn xx I will include though I would like to keep it disclosed until I start my first axis game sometimes in future so I don't give away my entire operational plan which would make things rather boring for my opponent...

@Tele, le mecus: True, corrected this in the thread and the word document.

Regards
EvK


< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 6/3/2017 10:39:17 PM >

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 10
RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 7/9/2017 6:14:10 PM   
Colbert

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
4. Unit MPs left>1/4*(MP at the beginning of the players turn) rounded down
Comment: Let me emphasize that it is not 1/4 of the Max MP but 1/4 of the MP at the beginning of the turn!
A Panzer division with 1MP can very well do a HQ BU if it had 4MP at the beginning of your turn which makes sense in my opinion.


If you have 3 regiments which merge to one division which original MP amount should it be at least a quarter of, lowest? highest? average? something else?

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 11
RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 7/10/2017 8:55:37 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 680
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: online
No idea to be honest, if you run tests please tell me the results so I can include them.
When merging regiments into diviusions, the combined unit has the MPs of the regiment with the fewest MPs

(in reply to Colbert)
Post #: 12
RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 7/11/2017 11:01:33 PM   
stolypin

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 12/23/2012
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Just tested&updated it:

HQ buildup:
The following conditions have to be met to allow HQ buildup for a unit.
1. Hexagon distance unit-HQ: <6hexagons
2. MP distance eligible HQ-railhead: <81MPs
3. Hexagon distance HQ-railhead: <21hexagons
4. HQ MPs left>1/4*MP at the beginning of the players turn rounded down
5. HQ MPs left>1/4*MP at the beginning of the players turn rounded down
6. HQ must not have done a HQ buildup last turn.
7. An attached combat unit must not have done a HQ buildup last turn (if not fulfilled, this only excludes the particular unit from the HQ buildup)
8. HQ must not exceed its command limit.
AP cost dependence:
1. Distance from railhead
2. Men in unit
Effects:
1. Resupply to 125%+MP/maxMP*75% at HQ buildup activation
2. Penalties (range to rail, MP to rail, Axis rail modifier, global vehicle shortage and unit vehicle shortage) are halved, fuel and truck cost doubled
3. HQ buildup is executed during the logistics phase


Comment: Let me emphasize that it is not 1/4 of the Max MP but 1/4 of the MP at the beginning of the turn!
A Panzer division with 1MP can very well do a HQ BU if it had 4MP at the beginning of your turn which makes sense in my opinion.


This should be stickied. Every month there is at least one question regarding buildups



I have spent the past 6 months learning WITE and I love it. But, without a doubt, HQ buildups -- both the procedure and the concept -- has been the most confusing part of the game for me.

(in reply to No idea)
Post #: 13
RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 7/12/2017 2:12:00 AM   
glvaca

 

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Joined: 6/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Colbert


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
4. Unit MPs left>1/4*(MP at the beginning of the players turn) rounded down
Comment: Let me emphasize that it is not 1/4 of the Max MP but 1/4 of the MP at the beginning of the turn!
A Panzer division with 1MP can very well do a HQ BU if it had 4MP at the beginning of your turn which makes sense in my opinion.


If you have 3 regiments which merge to one division which original MP amount should it be at least a quarter of, lowest? highest? average? something else?



Lowest...

(in reply to Colbert)
Post #: 14
RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 7/20/2017 3:50:14 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 869
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca


quote:

ORIGINAL: Colbert


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
4. Unit MPs left>1/4*(MP at the beginning of the players turn) rounded down
Comment: Let me emphasize that it is not 1/4 of the Max MP but 1/4 of the MP at the beginning of the turn!
A Panzer division with 1MP can very well do a HQ BU if it had 4MP at the beginning of your turn which makes sense in my opinion.


If you have 3 regiments which merge to one division which original MP amount should it be at least a quarter of, lowest? highest? average? something else?



Lowest...


Confirmed. It does mean that a regiment can use more than three quarters of its movement points and still do a HQ buildup if it can merge into its division. In the extreme (and I have an actual case that comes close) you could move an axis regiment by 49 MPs and still get it to an HQ build up. As such it looks like something that can be exploited - and so will probably be removed in a future version.

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 15
RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 7/21/2017 7:08:07 AM   
morvael


Posts: 10675
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
Thanks for the tip, this will be fixed in the next version.

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 16
RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 7/21/2017 9:49:39 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 680
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: online
Good find

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 17
RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 7/27/2017 10:35:51 AM   
morvael


Posts: 10675
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Colbert
If you have 3 regiments which merge to one division which original MP amount should it be at least a quarter of, lowest? highest? average? something else?


I have checked this and lowest is selected for all movement values (current movement points, at start of turn movement points, strategic movement points). It seems there is no big exploit, but only a smaller one (one unit 20/20, another unit 50/5 will give a unit 20/5 which can build up). I will fix this to select highest at start of turn movement points instead of lowest.



< Message edited by morvael -- 7/27/2017 10:38:45 AM >

(in reply to Colbert)
Post #: 18
RE: Can't do HQ buildup even in Germany - 7/27/2017 1:35:17 PM   
Telemecus


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Joined: 3/20/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
quote:

ORIGINAL: Colbert
If you have 3 regiments which merge to one division which original MP amount should it be at least a quarter of, lowest? highest? average? something else?

I have checked this and lowest is selected for all movement values (current movement points, at start of turn movement points, strategic movement points). It seems there is no big exploit, but only a smaller one (one unit 20/20, another unit 50/5 will give a unit 20/5 which can build up). I will fix this to select highest at start of turn movement points instead of lowest.


I was thinking it might make unrealistic play as in certain circumstances there is an incentive to split divisions into regiments just before the end turn button is pressed. The problem will come more from when you merge separate units after movement rather than before - one regt with 50MPs (13needed for buildup) another with 1MP (1 needed for buildup), the first can move 49MPs before merging to a division with 1 MP (1 needed for buildup). In the other cases (movement points, strategic movement points etc) you cannot actually gain anything for a regiment by merging it, whereas here a regiment that cannot get a buildup suddenly can.

Using the highest rule you suggested on the other hand would mean the division could never build up as soon as you merge the regiments, even if theyhave not moved first at all. Which may be right, but could cause the opposite incentive to never break down divisions. One way to make it more incentive neutral way is if you only allow a divisional buildup if all the regiments could have still built up separately immediately before merging. But I accept that is probably very difficult to code and for what is perhaps not too great an exploit.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 7/28/2017 6:27:42 PM >

(in reply to morvael)
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