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Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/18/2017 2:13:26 PM   
darryltinney

 

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Love the game. Very balanced. Very enjoyable. The one thing I do not understand is why the Allies are able to invade France in 1943. Sometimes it is in May and I think even April. That was just not possible. It is a massive 1944 style invasion. Love the game but that seems just a little silly in a game that otherwise has such balance. It happens no matter the situation. Huge Axis forces in France they invade anyways. It seems hard coded by the AI. Invade France June 1943. Does anyone else see this?
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RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/18/2017 6:46:20 PM   
Steely Glint


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I've seen them invade from the beginning of 1943 to the end of 1944. Maybe it's something you're doing, or maybe it's just small sample size.

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RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/18/2017 9:57:14 PM   
Ice


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Try holding off invading Russia in 41.
Russia will invade you Jan 42 & by the end of the year you wont have to worry about Allies invasion in 43 as the
Russians will already be in Berlin.


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RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/19/2017 7:40:24 AM   
roy64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darryltinney

Love the game. Very balanced. Very enjoyable. The one thing I do not understand is why the Allies are able to invade France in 1943. Sometimes it is in May and I think even April. That was just not possible. It is a massive 1944 style invasion. Love the game but that seems just a little silly in a game that otherwise has such balance. It happens no matter the situation. Huge Axis forces in France they invade anyways. It seems hard coded by the AI. Invade France June 1943. Does anyone else see this?


This is why I'm not buying the game. A friend of mine has the game & he said it has happened every time he has played. Very disappointing.

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RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/19/2017 8:27:09 AM   
Ironclad

 

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The strong probability of a 43 invasion is a deliberate game design and makes for a better balanced match otherwise the Axis would have it far too easy in the east. Historically its also accurate in that the Americans had planned for a 43 invasion before Churchill and circumstances had led them to focus on the Mediterranean and knocking out Italy. Indeed there was a plan for a smaller 42 invasion to be triggered if the Germans totally collapsed in the east. The one difference to the history is, as noted, the game 43 invasion hits with the strength of the real 44 one.

Axis strategy should be to either mitigate the possibility or delay it and/or reduce its strength by Sealion, a vigorous use of the Uboats backed up be surface forays, and offensive success in Egypt and a move into Irag therby diverting Allied energies. Helped of course if Spain joins the Axis.

A 43 invasion, even a powerful one but hopefully reduced through the above means, can be defeated if a powerful enough garrison with armour and fighter support and helped by coastal fortifications is gathered in the west by that date.

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RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/19/2017 11:17:36 AM   
roy64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ironclad

The strong probability of a 43 invasion is a deliberate game design and makes for a better balanced match otherwise the Axis would have it far too easy in the east. Historically its also accurate in that the Americans had planned for a 43 invasion before Churchill and circumstances had led them to focus on the Mediterranean and knocking out Italy. Indeed there was a plan for a smaller 42 invasion to be triggered if the Germans totally collapsed in the east. The one difference to the history is, as noted, the game 43 invasion hits with the strength of the real 44 one.

Axis strategy should be to either mitigate the possibility or delay it and/or reduce its strength by Sealion, a vigorous use of the Uboats backed up be surface forays, and offensive success in Egypt and a move into Irag therby diverting Allied energies. Helped of course if Spain joins the Axis.

A 43 invasion, even a powerful one but hopefully reduced through the above means, can be defeated if a powerful enough garrison with armour and fighter support and helped by coastal fortifications is gathered in the west by that date.


We know all that & are experienced players, both of us have all the other SC games so know how to play but so far can't win this one, the allies always seem to have level 4 or 5 fighter, Russians always seem to have a never ending supply of troops.

43 invasion is not historically accurate, it was abandoned due to the fact it would be imposable to do, that's why they decided to invade in 44. When your successful in Africa in 42-43 you will get invaded in France in early 43 instead of Africa which makes no sense. The AI doesn't put up a good enough fight in Egypt or Irag once the Germans defeat them.

The game would be more balanced & historically accurate if the allies invaded Africa then Italy & then Europe. There needs to be more of an effort made by the AI in Africa before any invasion of Europe. Africa should be in Allied hand before any landings in Europe is even considered.

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Post #: 6
RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/19/2017 1:07:24 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

43 invasion is not historically accurate, it was abandoned due to the fact it would be imposable to do,

Well, it was impossible because the assets were transferred to the Med for Torch. Torch in 1942 canceled a cross channel attack in 1943. So while the game doesn't follow the strict historical path, it follows history in that if the Allies do not go to the Med first, they can go to NW Europe first.

From the other side, historically the Germans transferred units from Russia to France each summer from 1942 on, in order to protect against an invasion. If the player knows that the computer will not invade France until 1944, then the player has a huge advantage.

I will tell you that when I first experienced this when I started playing that I also cried foul loudly. A few plays later I was over it. You may not like it, but it is not a disappointing game design.

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RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/19/2017 1:41:42 PM   
darryltinney

 

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All good points. I have fought it off. It does make the game very challenging. I have won once (USSR surrendered by driving their morale to zero in a long long war) and by holding out in France keeping the allies pinned to the beaches. That was on "normal" or default difficulty. I took over Persia, Iraq, Arabia, etc.. as well. Was building up for invasion of Britain and the game ended. Sadly. I recently started a game on the easier level. I wanted to take England! I could never get the research like I did in previous game. Even though I allocated exactly the same thing. I was always behind the Russians in Tanks, planes, etc.. The game before I usually had a one factor lead. There is obviously a lot of randomness and "luck" to the research advances. I was on my way to winning that game as well but then the game locked up and lost several months worth of turns. I try and save every turn but I got sloppy during an all night binge play. Its too depressing to go back and play 5 months over again.

I guess the invasion of France in 43 is reasonable to make the game more competitive. Maybe the invasion can be triggered by lack of forces in France? I try and maintain the west wall as the game goes. Building a little each turn or so.

I love the game. The bugs are maddening though. I jut wish the crashes would stop.

On to Gary Grigsby's the War in the East!

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RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/19/2017 2:43:24 PM   
Hartmann301

 

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I could handle a 43 D-Day no problem. But two times now I had to deal with an invasion of France in 42!! With only garrisons there, I have been completely unready for it. Someone tell me how to handle or delay that??

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RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/19/2017 3:06:25 PM   
vonik

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartmann301

I could handle a 43 D-Day no problem. But two times now I had to deal with an invasion of France in 42!! With only garrisons there, I have been completely unready for it. Someone tell me how to handle or delay that??



You should have 11 lvl 3 subs by then . You just lock the approaches to the western France while you do recon flights over England to check if there isn't a US build up because UK alone has not the techs to invade in 42 .


(in reply to Hartmann301)
Post #: 10
RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/19/2017 3:35:49 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Hi Roy64,

If we are talking about the AI, it will 9 times out of 10 only invade France in '43 if it hasn't performed the North African invasion (Torch) in late '42 early '43. If it performs Torch, then it is most likely to invade France in '44 (as it will need more time to build up sufficient invasion troops) as the Allies did so historically.

The primary reasons for this are partially for some randomness on behalf of the AI from game to game, and because the AI also tries to take into account the game situation as it dynamically unfolds.

For example, part of the AI planning is linked to whether a North African invasion is needed and/or likely to succeed and if not then it takes and uses those troops for an earlier '43 invasion of France instead.

The idea here is to attempt to mimic some higher level thinking that a human player would also employ in a similar situation.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

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Post #: 11
RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/19/2017 4:09:54 PM   
Hartmann301

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonik


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartmann301

I could handle a 43 D-Day no problem. But two times now I had to deal with an invasion of France in 42!! With only garrisons there, I have been completely unready for it. Someone tell me how to handle or delay that??



You should have 11 lvl 3 subs by then . You just lock the approaches to the western France while you do recon flights over England to check if there isn't a US build up because UK alone has not the techs to invade in 42 .




Do I keep the subs in silent mode for that?



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Post #: 12
RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/19/2017 4:24:47 PM   
roy64


Posts: 68
Joined: 6/9/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Hi Roy64,

If we are talking about the AI, it will 9 times out of 10 only invade France in '43 if it hasn't performed the North African invasion (Torch) in late '42 early '43. If it performs Torch, then it is most likely to invade France in '44 (as it will need more time to build up sufficient invasion troops) as the Allies did so historically.

The primary reasons for this are partially for some randomness on behalf of the AI from game to game, and because the AI also tries to take into account the game situation as it dynamically unfolds.

For example, part of the AI planning is linked to whether a North African invasion is needed and/or likely to succeed and if not then it takes and uses those troops for an earlier '43 invasion of France instead.

The idea here is to attempt to mimic some higher level thinking that a human player would also employ in a similar situation.

Hope this helps,
Hubert


So if your successful as the Germans in North Africa your going to be invaded in 43, if that's the case you would be better of not defending Africa that would then give you more time to build up your forces for the 44 invasion.

(in reply to Hubert Cater)
Post #: 13
RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/19/2017 7:53:44 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

Posts: 1019
Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: online
Not necessarily as the AI needs to commit to plans such as Torch with a significant lead time in mind simply due to logistics and even an invasion in 43 is not always guaranteed as it depends on a certain available unit threshold being met. So it all depends on when you achieve any success in North Africa and to an extent how much of a success as well.

Essentially there are quite a few factors including a degree of randomness so that ideally no two games with identical situations will necessarily be the same.

While I can appreciate that there is always the desire to have the AI play out exactly to history, we've found that a more dynamic and reactive AI (within reasonable historical limits) has always been more well received over time.

For example, the first few games would be fine if the AI plays out exactly to history, but after half a dozen games more often than not players would ask for the AI to start thinking more outside the box and to alter its plans according to the game map situation. In a nutshell this is the thinking of our current design and why it plays as it does right from the start.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

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Post #: 14
RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/19/2017 9:18:06 PM   
vonik

 

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Joined: 4/8/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartmann301


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonik


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartmann301

I could handle a 43 D-Day no problem. But two times now I had to deal with an invasion of France in 42!! With only garrisons there, I have been completely unready for it. Someone tell me how to handle or delay that??



You should have 11 lvl 3 subs by then . You just lock the approaches to the western France while you do recon flights over England to check if there isn't a US build up because UK alone has not the techs to invade in 42 .




Do I keep the subs in silent mode for that?





Yes . They are always less vulnerable in silent . Main thing is that you make sure that you intercept any ship trying to approach western France .
As soon as you have the first contact (generally a destroyer) you can gather the KM because the invasion fleet is probably just a few hexes behind .

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Post #: 15
RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/20/2017 8:49:36 AM   
roy64


Posts: 68
Joined: 6/9/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Not necessarily as the AI needs to commit to plans such as Torch with a significant lead time in mind simply due to logistics and even an invasion in 43 is not always guaranteed as it depends on a certain available unit threshold being met. So it all depends on when you achieve any success in North Africa and to an extent how much of a success as well.

Essentially there are quite a few factors including a degree of randomness so that ideally no two games with identical situations will necessarily be the same.

While I can appreciate that there is always the desire to have the AI play out exactly to history, we've found that a more dynamic and reactive AI (within reasonable historical limits) has always been more well received over time.

For example, the first few games would be fine if the AI plays out exactly to history, but after half a dozen games more often than not players would ask for the AI to start thinking more outside the box and to alter its plans according to the game map situation. In a nutshell this is the thinking of our current design and why it plays as it does right from the start.

Hope this helps,
Hubert


No not really, every time (that I & my friend have seen) the Germans take Africa & Middle East there's no Torch landings & there's always a 43 invasion & I'm definitely not suggesting the AI plays out exactly to history but it would be good to keep to some kind of historical timeline like it does for the rest of the game.

This game has the potential or is the best game you've made so far apart form the ease at which Germany can take Africa causing no Torch landings & the 43 invasion.

(in reply to Hubert Cater)
Post #: 16
RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/20/2017 3:20:03 PM   
Leadwieght

 

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I'd be very sorry to see an adjustment to disallow Cross-channel invasions before 1944. In my experience, the Allied AI is too easy to beat as it is

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RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/20/2017 5:58:04 PM   
Steely Glint


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leadwieght

I'd be very sorry to see an adjustment to disallow Cross-channel invasions before 1944. In my experience, the Allied AI is too easy to beat as it is

I agree completely. Do not make this change.

_____________________________

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Post #: 18
RE: Allies invading France too early it seems - 5/20/2017 6:51:19 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Joined: 7/22/2013
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quote:


No not really, every time (that I & my friend have seen) the Germans take Africa & Middle East there's no Torch landings & there's always a 43 invasion & I'm definitely not suggesting the AI plays out exactly to history but it would be good to keep to some kind of historical timeline like it does for the rest of the game.

This game has the potential or is the best game you've made so far apart form the ease at which Germany can take Africa causing no Torch landings & the 43 invasion.


If you've secured enough of North Africa by mid 1942 then this is possible, however with the newest update this timeline might be a bit more of a challenge as we've made a slight supply rule adjustment for HQ linking that will make supply in North Africa a bit more realistic for the Axis especially with the Malta effect in play.


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Post #: 19
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