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How accuracy works in land combat?

 
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How accuracy works in land combat? - 5/7/2017 8:23:32 PM   
Dili

 

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The first question should be does device accuracy matter in land combat? For example M3A1 scout car classed as AFV have no accuracy neither Squads have accuracy. So maybe it matters for artillery phase but not for the final combat(at less than 3 range) or not matetrs at all and only matter for anti-ship(anti invasion) and anti aircraft.
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RE: How accuracy works in land combat? - 5/8/2017 6:30:49 PM   
cardas

 

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Accuracy does not matter at all for land combat according to US87891 ( http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4251539 ) and that is also my experience when I've done (small scale) tests using exaggerated accuracy values.

(in reply to Dili)
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RE: How accuracy works in land combat? - 5/8/2017 8:05:10 PM   
Dili

 

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So for artillery, AFV and squads there is only 2 fields that matter in land combat? anti soft and anti armored?

I also know the range defines what devices bombard and that coast defense guns and DP guns have some restrictions in land combat..

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RE: How accuracy works in land combat? - 5/8/2017 8:28:31 PM   
cardas

 

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Well, as you said, range matters to determine if something is bombardment capable artillery or not. I believe penetration and armor are also functional in land combat so that's 5 fields. I haven't tested penetration/armor myself though (can a "Squad" device have armor? How does it interact with anti-armor? etc.). Ultimately the land combat model isn't overly sophisticated though.

So when it comes to "Squad", "Army Weapon", "AFV", "Vehicle"?, "Engineer"? you have to following active fields when it comes to land combat.
Range: Determines if it's an indirect weapon or not.
Accuracy: Does nothing.
Penetration: Probably functional, presumably interacts with armor somehow. From what I've gathered anything with a penetration value functions as anti-tank weapons which is why normal infantry "Squad" types had a value of 0 (otherwise they would be way too effective against tanks), but I don't know the details.
Effect: Does nothing.
Ceiling: Does nothing.
Armor: Protection, presumably interacts in some way with penetration and/or anti-armor.
Dud Rate: Does nothing.
Anti-Armor: Some kind of effectiveness value against armor (AFV, vehicles?).
Anti-Soft: Some kind of combat effectiveness value.
Load Cost: Does nothing. Although it of course matters when transporting the device with ships and planes.

DISCLAIMER! I'm not a developer. Those were educated guesses. The information may not be correct!


You could make a custom scenario to test this if you wanted using devices with exaggerated values. A bit tedious to setup and run, but then you wouldn't have to rely on hearsay.

< Message edited by cardas -- 5/8/2017 8:30:12 PM >

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RE: How accuracy works in land combat? - 5/9/2017 11:27:47 AM   
Alpha77

 

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I believe the PEN value only matters for NAVAL combat. If you have a land device with PEN it only works if it shoots at ships (imho)

Also I would support the notion for land combat AT/AS are the main values.

And EFFECT seems to be mainly a value for anit air. Supported by if you put higher EFFECT in AA weapons you get a higher "AA value" for ships and bases. But it seems putting higher ACC value does not effect that value (which is artificial anyway, you need to look at each weapons stats to find the real capabilites not a the value)

ACC and EFF however may also count for NAV combat, eg. a 40mm has higher EFF but pretty low PEN, it will do however more damage to ship structures but not much to penetrate armor. Ecxept ofc if the ships armor is thin.

ACC should count for at least AT combat too, otherwise why the (in reality quite accurate) 47mm At gun have a good ACC value? The 37mm has low value, as it should be. If it would not count at all, the original game designers would not have bothered to put in ACC values for AT weapons imo.

At least I used these assumptions for my scen.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 5/9/2017 11:35:06 AM >

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RE: How accuracy works in land combat? - 5/9/2017 11:52:22 AM   
Dili

 

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Okay this is what i think:

Range: Determines with anti soft(3 range 5 anti soft at least) if it's an indirect weapon or not, also DP and CD weapons might not bombard if below range 15kyd against land. Range might matter for land device against ships.
Accuracy: Only matter if the land device is firing against ships/aircraft
Penetration: Only matter if the land device is firing against ships/aircraft( because aircraft armor? or is it the effect value?)
Effect: Only matter if the land device is firing against ships/aircraft.
Ceiling: Only matter if the land device is firing against aircraft.
Armor: Protection from anti-armor field.
Dud rate: Does nothing.
Anti armor: Like you said effectiveness value against armor value. Unclear if only for AFV or all devices. I suspect all that have armor at least since i see army weapons class, ex Priest SP with armor value.
Anti soft: effectiveness value against devices with no armor. Unclear if a device with 1 mm - 5mm armor can be defeated by a device with only anti soft.
Load Cost: Just the device weight for transport like you said.


< Message edited by Dili -- 5/9/2017 12:20:49 PM >

(in reply to cardas)
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RE: How accuracy works in land combat? - 5/9/2017 3:22:24 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Okay this is what i think:

Range: Determines with anti soft(3 range 5 anti soft at least) if it's an indirect weapon or not, also DP and CD weapons might not bombard if below range 15kyd against land. Range might matter for land device against ships.

Close enough. Better is that it determines whether it participates in bombardment attacks.

Accuracy: Only matter if the land device is firing against ships/aircraft

Misleading.

Penetration: Only matter if the land device is firing against ships/aircraft( because aircraft armor? or is it the effect value?)

Misleading. It is value fed into combat algorithm to determine whether hit penetrates armor value to register damage.

Effect: Only matter if the land device is firing against ships/aircraft.

Misleading. Effect = maximum damage potential resulting from a hit

Ceiling: Only matter if the land device is firing against aircraft.

Close enough.

Armor: Protection from anti-armor field.

Close enough. Value is fed into combat algorithm to determine if any of maximum potential damage from a hit may result.

Dud rate: Does nothing.

Close enough. Good example that all fields simply have a string to identify them and the string is not necessarily reflective of how the data is used under the hood.

Anti armor: Like you said effectiveness value against armor value. Unclear if only for AFV or all devices. I suspect all that have armor at least since i see army weapons class, ex Priest SP with armor value.

Misleading. Data is used against any device with an armor rating. The greater the delta in favour of the anti armor rating over the armor rating, the greater the odds that a penetrating hit will ensue and therefore bring into play the effect rating.

Anti soft: effectiveness value against devices with no armor. Unclear if a device with 1 mm - 5mm armor can be defeated by a device with only anti soft.

Misleading. Data is used against any device without an armor rating.

Load Cost: Just the device weight for transport like you said.

Close enough. Data is also taken into account for other considerations.




Alfred

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RE: How accuracy works in land combat? - 5/9/2017 7:31:04 PM   
Dili

 

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Thanks Alfred

Effect matters for land combat at least in anti armor, does also for anti soft? I was totally wrong in this.

I don't get what i wrote is misleading about penetration, it seems to not be applicable against devices. Maybe is not also to aircraft and that is reason you classified it misleading?

Also if possible clarify what is misleading about accuracy.

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RE: How accuracy works in land combat? - 5/10/2017 9:43:05 PM   
cardas

 

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Okay, I'll have to disagree with Alfred here, although simply saying misleading isn't a very strong statement. I've actually at least done some minimal test with respect to Effect and Accuracy. I haven't thoroughly tested all kind of combinations of device types and their respective data fields, but I have in the past done some minimal testing with respect to Effect and Accuracy with devices of the type "Army Weapon".

Test device 1
Type: 19 - Army Weapon
Range: 25
Accuracy: 0
Penetration: 20
Effect: 0
Ceiling: 0
Armor: 0
Dud Date: 0
Anti-Armor: 50
Anti-Soft: 50
Load Cost: 4

Test device 2
Type: 19 - Army Weapon
Range: 25
Accuracy: 2500
Penetration: 20
Effect: 2500
Ceiling: 0
Armor: 0
Dud Date: 0
Anti-Armor: 50
Anti-Soft: 50
Load Cost: 4

This was paired up with the following device.

Infantry
Type: 23 - Squad
Range: 0
Accuracy: 0
Penetration: 0
Effect: 0
Ceiling: 0
Armor: 0
Dud Date: 0
Anti-Armor: 5
Anti-Soft: 24
Load Cost: 12

Grouped together in the following formations

Attacking infantry division type 1
400 x Infantry
400 x Test device 1
800 x Support

Attacking infantry division type 2
400 x Infantry
400 x Test device 2
800 x Support

Defending infantry division
400 x Infantry
400 x Support

Now let's make it absolutely clear that I haven't actually made a statistical analysis of the results nor have I run the test more than a few tens of times for each. It's a very rough test to be sure. However within the limitations of this test there was no easily discernable difference between these two devices when used in attacks of the type "Delibrate attack" or "Bombardment". If those two data fields actually matter within this context then their impact is very small.

A change such as, say, from Anti-Soft: 50 to Anti-Soft: 5000 is something on the other hand that you'll readily notice. If Effect and Accuracy actually does matter within the confines of what I've tested (land combat, device of type "Army Weapon") then it's impact is comparatively minor.

(in reply to Dili)
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RE: How accuracy works in land combat? - 5/11/2017 2:43:32 PM   
Dili

 

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Thanks Cardas for input. Did you changed the range to less than 3 when in deliberate attack?

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RE: How accuracy works in land combat? - 5/11/2017 8:03:03 PM   
cardas

 

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No, range was unchanged.

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RE: How accuracy works in land combat? - 5/12/2017 6:36:50 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cardas

Okay, I'll have to disagree with Alfred here, although simply saying misleading isn't a very strong statement. I've actually at least done some minimal test with respect to Effect and Accuracy. I haven't thoroughly tested all kind of combinations of device types and their respective data fields, but I have in the past done some minimal testing with respect to Effect and Accuracy with devices of the type "Army Weapon".

Test device 1
Type: 19 - Army Weapon
Range: 25
Accuracy: 0
Penetration: 20
Effect: 0
Ceiling: 0
Armor: 0
Dud Date: 0
Anti-Armor: 50
Anti-Soft: 50
Load Cost: 4

Test device 2
Type: 19 - Army Weapon
Range: 25
Accuracy: 2500
Penetration: 20
Effect: 2500
Ceiling: 0
Armor: 0
Dud Date: 0
Anti-Armor: 50
Anti-Soft: 50
Load Cost: 4

This was paired up with the following device.

Infantry
Type: 23 - Squad
Range: 0
Accuracy: 0
Penetration: 0
Effect: 0
Ceiling: 0
Armor: 0
Dud Date: 0
Anti-Armor: 5
Anti-Soft: 24
Load Cost: 12

Grouped together in the following formations

Attacking infantry division type 1
400 x Infantry
400 x Test device 1
800 x Support

Attacking infantry division type 2
400 x Infantry
400 x Test device 2
800 x Support

Defending infantry division
400 x Infantry
400 x Support

Now let's make it absolutely clear that I haven't actually made a statistical analysis of the results nor have I run the test more than a few tens of times for each. It's a very rough test to be sure. However within the limitations of this test there was no easily discernable difference between these two devices when used in attacks of the type "Delibrate attack" or "Bombardment". If those two data fields actually matter within this context then their impact is very small.

A change such as, say, from Anti-Soft: 50 to Anti-Soft: 5000 is something on the other hand that you'll readily notice. If Effect and Accuracy actually does matter within the confines of what I've tested (land combat, device of type "Army Weapon") then it's impact is comparatively minor.


Care to state what exactly you disagree with.

Alfred

(in reply to cardas)
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RE: How accuracy works in land combat? - 5/12/2017 6:55:02 PM   
cardas

 

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To begin with I said that your comments weren't very strong statements to begin with.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili
-snip-

Accuracy: Only matter if the land device is firing against ships/aircraft

Misleading.

-snip-

Effect: Only matter if the land device is firing against ships/aircraft.

Misleading. Effect = maximum damage potential resulting from a hit


This implies Accuracy and Effect does matter in land combat. In the small tests I've done that did not seem to be the case at least for "Army Weapon" devices when in combat against "Squad" type devices. Now I'll re-emphasize that the tests were of limited scope. Even then a difference should reasonably have been noticeable considering the large difference between a value of 0 and 2500.

I haven't of course tested all combinations of devices types that can be involved in land combat so I can't make a strong claim that Accuracy and Effect never matters in land combat. However I've yet to find any compelling evidence that it does.

What I disagree with thus is that you give the answer "Misleading" to Dili implying that the two data fields matter in land combat. My own experience is that at the very least in some cases they either simply don't or their impact is miniscule to the point where they can be ignored. The implication of your "Misleading" statement is therefore, according to the tests I've done, inaccurate.

< Message edited by cardas -- 5/12/2017 7:01:56 PM >

(in reply to Alfred)
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