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"Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended)

 
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"Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/3/2017 10:04:12 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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Back in June 2016 (10 months ago as of this writing) I started modding my Distant Worlds Universe, as I imagine most people do. A little change here, a little change there. Pretty soon I had something that was, for me, more fun than the vanilla game. I’ve decided to move forward with releaseing it and let other people see my setup.

Some will react with “meh” others will be more excited. So, over the next few weeks as I continue to test it (I haven’t finished a single game yet because I keep adding stuff) I will release some screenshots and description of some of the changes. There will be no new graphics as my talents don’t lie in that area. Any custom ships you see in screenshots are the products of other people’s mods and, obviously, will not be included in mine.

I hope it will be well received but even if it isn’t, to paraphrase Rush “Yes it was for me, not you, I came to write this mod”. :)
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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/4/2017 9:37:07 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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OK, here is the first teaser pic from the mod. Let's make a game of this. Can you spot the mod?




Canaris_PL, if you are still playing Distant Worlds, your wish from two years ago is about to come true.

(in reply to RogerBacon)
Post #: 2
RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/6/2017 1:06:46 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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Here's another image. In the first image the star had a combined stellar energy output of 100. This star only has 64.
Can you see the difference?

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3864689




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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/7/2017 2:02:27 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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OK, we'll get back to the above screenshots later. Moving along...

Some people have wondered if it was possible to change the 50/50 split of fighters/bombers carried on their ships.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3685079
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3985096
The answer has always been "Yes, if you micromanage each ship and then redo it each time a fighter or bomber is destroyed". So, in other words, "No, because its a pain in the butt".
If we had a separate component for fighters and another one for bombers though it would be easy.
Enter, the BomberBay:



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Post #: 4
RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/9/2017 8:08:31 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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OK, so stars generate gravity wells of various sizes. What are the consequences of that?

1 Sublight speed becomes much more important. Previously speed only mattered if you were using the cheese tactic of "kiting" your enemy (Keeping out of their range while you picked them to death slowly). Now Speed matters a lot more. That's a good thing.
2 Non-combatants (freighters et al) are on their own much more. No having your destroyer arrive to save them or have the freighters jump out 18 seconds after enemy sighting. Something has to be done about that. Freighters have to be built with speed in mind or they have to be built to fight, at least a little. Also, freighters can't flee when an enemy is sighted because the enemy might take 10 or more minutes to reach them. They should concentrate on completing their mission.

Here is a freighter from my game. It has a fighting chance against a lone pirate at least. It also won't run right away.

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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/9/2017 9:12:28 PM   
Retreat1970


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If everyone is hyper denied then trade will suffer I think. Unless it's late game, freighters could run out of gas then move at severely reduced speed. Just a thought.

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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/10/2017 12:26:06 AM   
RogerBacon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Retreat1970

If everyone is hyper denied then trade will suffer I think. Unless it's late game, freighters could run out of gas then move at severely reduced speed. Just a thought.


Well, it takes a little longer for shipments to arrive, just like when you are pre-warp.
As far as the fuel usage, you are correct; freighters would run out of gas unless I did something about it. To that end, I've included a user-defined sublight fuel divisor. From testing, it appears that 3 works well.

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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/10/2017 7:42:31 PM   
Nemo84

 

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As a long-time Distant Worlds player who has unsuccessfully attempted this very same stellar gravity well thing, I have only two questions. How the hell did you do it and where can I download it?

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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/10/2017 10:00:46 PM   
Kull


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If the freighters are armed, won't that cause AI empires to respond diplomatically as if they were warships? So lots of trespass warnings, and anger, etc.

_____________________________


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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/11/2017 1:03:42 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

As a long-time Distant Worlds player who has unsuccessfully attempted this very same stellar gravity well thing, I have only two questions. How the hell did you do it and where can I download it?


Soon. I'm still testing. I tend to play the same style of game all the time and I need to test with other styles (storyline, pirate, etc.) to find potential problems. I've found a ton that way but have worked through most of them so far.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

If the freighters are armed, won't that cause AI empires to respond diplomatically as if they were warships? So lots of trespass warnings, and anger, etc.

Freighters can already have one weapon so the game recognizes the difference between freighters and other ships. My armed-to-the-teeth freighters make port calls at other empires' planets all the time without triggering the 'remove your ships' warning.

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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/11/2017 1:27:05 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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Ok, even though I'm focusing on the hyperjump denying stars, this mod is really just a collection of all the changes I've made in the past 10 months. There really is no theme so I may seem like I'm jumping around a bit. To that end, moving on to the next piece...

here was a thread that captured my interest some time ago.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3888365

I didn't like the answer so here is my answer:
(Besides the obvious, note my flag)




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Post #: 11
RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/14/2017 2:22:34 AM   
RogerBacon

 

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Way, way back in 2010 forum member IGard discovered that we could have extra ship images if we assigned them to a family that was not assigned to a race. The images would appear at the end of the list and the player could use them. That was a GREAT discovery and I used it myself but I longed for something more. I wanted the images close to my race's images and I wanted the cruisers listed together and the destroyers listed together, etc. I also wanted the AI to be able to have more than one image per ship class.
My mod will allow players to have up to 5 images per ship type per family. Here's a screenshot of a few ships in family9 of my setup. (The images come from other people's mods and are used only as examples).




The nice thing about this is that you don't have to have five of each ship class. YOu can add a cruiser to one family, a destroyer to a different family and leave the other families alone. If the AI designs a ship with more than one possible image it will pick one at random.

Now the downsides (you knew there had to be some)
1 Saved games won't load if you add or remove images. You can swap images but the number must stay the same until you start a new game.
2 If you have saved ship designs (most people have a set of starting designs saved so they don't have to redo the tedious setup each game) the images will be wrong until you set them and re-save them. After doing that once they will be fine until you add more images.

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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/16/2017 7:39:42 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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I think independent planets are too easy to invade.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3126437
They have only a couple of troops defending them. I always set "Allow independent colonies to become empires" but I've never seen it happen because they are always conquered first.
The HUGE advantage of getting one of these free colonies is that you ge their colonization tech as well. conquer a colony on a volcanic planet and you can then use them to colonize any volcanic planet. I found that I never even bothered to research colonization tech anymore.
My mod will allow the user to set policy for how many troops an independent colony will try to produce and use as its garrison. I set the default to 40. Its makes conquering one of them a challenge but still doable.




< Message edited by RogerBacon -- 4/16/2017 7:44:05 PM >

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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/18/2017 1:38:48 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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I mentioned state-run mining ships above. Now let's talk about state-run passenger ships.

Some people have had problems with passenger ships not taking people to where the player wants them to go (or not taking them anywhere).

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3887002
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3902131

Here's how it works.
If you have a passenger ship selected and press Control-W the game will perform a passenger transport mission from SOURCE to DESTINATION as defined in a text file called passengers.txt. Not a lot of error checking here so make sure you spell the planet name exactly correct (copy paste from within the game is best). Note: you can keep the passengers.txt file open. Just save it after updating it and the new setting will take effect.

I made a video showing how it works back in July. Sadly, I never got around to allowing the user to select which population on the planet to move. It always takes your empire's main race.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u3ifDsJSPY

< Message edited by RogerBacon -- 4/18/2017 1:42:41 PM >

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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/18/2017 1:49:48 PM   
Sparviero

 

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Good job man! I'm a new player so I'm playing with only cosmetic mod for now.
But your mod seems to modify complex stuff...I'll keep an eye on it in the future!

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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/18/2017 2:28:30 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sparviero

Good job man! I'm a new player so I'm playing with only cosmetic mod for now.
But your mod seems to modify complex stuff...I'll keep an eye on it in the future!


Thanks. I was beginning to wonder if I was just talking to myself.

As a side note, my mod is almost 100% compatible with all of the other mods out there so when I finally release it you can keep whatever cosmetic mod you are currently using.

The exception to the "almost 100% compatible" is a minor change to a few of the text files (all optional)

components.txt: Added a new component "BomberBay" since my mod splits fighters and bombers into separate components.
Research.txt: Researching fighters unlock both FighterBay and the new BomberBay
Fighters.txt: I tripled the damage of missile and torpedo bombers (reason forthcoming)

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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/18/2017 2:55:02 PM   
Retreat1970


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quote:

Thanks. I was beginning to wonder if I was just talking to myself.


Not a lot of us around anymore.

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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/18/2017 5:52:42 PM   
Sparviero

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RogerBacon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sparviero

Good job man! I'm a new player so I'm playing with only cosmetic mod for now.
But your mod seems to modify complex stuff...I'll keep an eye on it in the future!


Thanks. I was beginning to wonder if I was just talking to myself.

As a side note, my mod is almost 100% compatible with all of the other mods out there so when I finally release it you can keep whatever cosmetic mod you are currently using.

The exception to the "almost 100% compatible" is a minor change to a few of the text files (all optional)

components.txt: Added a new component "BomberBay" since my mod splits fighters and bombers into separate components.
Research.txt: Researching fighters unlock both FighterBay and the new BomberBay
Fighters.txt: I tripled the damage of missile and torpedo bombers (reason forthcoming)



We are few, but we are here :D

I'm sorry I'm still learning to play so I can't help with good observations.

In anycase, the thing about gravity well means that ships can't warp in the area around the stars?

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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/19/2017 1:15:34 AM   
Overlord015

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RogerBacon

Thanks. I was beginning to wonder if I was just talking to myself.



Please don't be discouraged, a mod like this just might add an extra 2-5 years of replayability to DW:U, we'll probably be getting DW2 by 2020 anyways XD. Many of the changes you're making here feel like an early Christmas, are you Santa? Anyways, just had to come out of the shadows to say this, I'm sure there are many other lurkers out there also salivating at the prospect of getting their grubby paws on this gem.

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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/19/2017 9:18:59 AM   
Sparviero

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Overlord015


quote:

ORIGINAL: RogerBacon

Thanks. I was beginning to wonder if I was just talking to myself.



Please don't be discouraged, a mod like this just might add an extra 2-5 years of replayability to DW:U, we'll probably be getting DW2 by 2020 anyways XD. Many of the changes you're making here feel like an early Christmas, are you Santa? Anyways, just had to come out of the shadows to say this, I'm sure there are many other lurkers out there also salivating at the prospect of getting their grubby paws on this gem.


I completely agree. If I understand well this thing of the gravity well, I will use this mod as soon as it will be released.

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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/19/2017 1:40:55 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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Thanks guys. Your feedback is encouraging.
A little more about stars' gravity wells.

They only prevent jumping out but not in. This is because if they dropped ships out of hyperspace every time a ship got near a star it would make hyperjumps on the galaxy map too much of a headache. You would end up micromanaging small jumps and that's no fun.

The distance a star's gravity well extends is directly related ot the output of the star's energy. Many people probably don't know this but if you click on a star it shows you the amount of energy it puts out. This directly affects how much energy an energy panel produces.

So, a star that has a total energy output of 100 would have a gravity well that affected the whole system. A star with only 67 energy output would have a gravity well affecting about 67% of the system.

The mod includes two settings to configure gravity wells.

1 UseGravityWells
Obviously if you set this to false there will be no gravity wells.

2 SmallerShipsJumpSooner
With this set to true, smaller ships are less affected by the gravity well. With this setting, the gravity well affect on a ship is multiplied by (ship size / max ship size buildable). So building a size 200 destroyer when you have the tech to build size 300 ships would mean a destroyer that could jump out of a system closer to the star.

I wanted to give an incentive to build smaller ships since people always build as big as they can.

In addition to stars' gravity wells, there are two other hyperjump-related settings. These are not related to stars and are in effect everywhere.

MinimumHyperjumpDistance
This is the minimum distance ships will try to make a jump. In Vanilla DWU it is 2000. I set it to 12000 a few months ago before I had the gravity wells thing working. It kind of gave the same feel but it wasn't really what I wanted to I kept at the gravity well idea until I got it working. Now, I play with the minimum jump set to 6000. It allows for more closing and maneuvering.

HyperjumpInaccuracy
This determines how close to target ships come out of hyperspace. In vanilla DWU it is 500. I currently play with it set to 1500 but I've had it as high as 3000. Fleets will arrive dispersed and you will have a lot more 1 on 1 battles instead of everybody in a tight dogpile.

< Message edited by RogerBacon -- 4/19/2017 1:44:09 PM >

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RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/19/2017 2:17:51 PM   
Sparviero

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RogerBacon

Thanks guys. Your feedback is encouraging.
A little more about stars' gravity wells.

They only prevent jumping out but not in. This is because if they dropped ships out of hyperspace every time a ship got near a star it would make hyperjumps on the galaxy map too much of a headache. You would end up micromanaging small jumps and that's no fun.

The distance a star's gravity well extends is directly related ot the output of the star's energy. Many people probably don't know this but if you click on a star it shows you the amount of energy it puts out. This directly affects how much energy an energy panel produces.

So, a star that has a total energy output of 100 would have a gravity well that affected the whole system. A star with only 67 energy output would have a gravity well affecting about 67% of the system.

The mod includes two settings to configure gravity wells.

1 UseGravityWells
Obviously if you set this to false there will be no gravity wells.

2 SmallerShipsJumpSooner
With this set to true, smaller ships are less affected by the gravity well. With this setting, the gravity well affect on a ship is multiplied by (ship size / max ship size buildable). So building a size 200 destroyer when you have the tech to build size 300 ships would mean a destroyer that could jump out of a system closer to the star.

I wanted to give an incentive to build smaller ships since people always build as big as they can.

In addition to stars' gravity wells, there are two other hyperjump-related settings. These are not related to stars and are in effect everywhere.

MinimumHyperjumpDistance
This is the minimum distance ships will try to make a jump. In Vanilla DWU it is 2000. I set it to 12000 a few months ago before I had the gravity wells thing working. It kind of gave the same feel but it wasn't really what I wanted to I kept at the gravity well idea until I got it working. Now, I play with the minimum jump set to 6000. It allows for more closing and maneuvering.

HyperjumpInaccuracy
This determines how close to target ships come out of hyperspace. In vanilla DWU it is 500. I currently play with it set to 1500 but I've had it as high as 3000. Fleets will arrive dispersed and you will have a lot more 1 on 1 battles instead of everybody in a tight dogpile.


I see the problems about makes gravity well influence also the jump in and I think HyperjumpInaccuracy will be perfect to avoid big groups of ships stick together, it also seems realistic: in a lot of sci-fi you read/see about hyperjump inaccuracy.

I also like the Smallershipsjumpsooner, while the minimum jump distance i will leave like in the vanilla: with the jump limitation of gravity well, we already should see a lot of ships travelling at normal speed.

It will be wonderful to have settings also for the hyperjumpinaccuracy and MinimumHyperjumpDistance: don't know how many work is make it, but I think have settings for all the four feautere will be like making a defenitive mod.

By the way, sorry for my English.


Now, I had a couple of idea...not really a suggestions for the mod, i hope to can play it very soon, but thoughts for the future.

I think will be great to have new components to influences the points you put in the mod.

- reaserch to lower the distance from the star a ship can jumpout, maybe with a specific line of components
- same thing about HyperjumpInaccuracy
- and about the Smallershipsjumpsooner...i think will be great to have a component with big size to compensate it: so you can decide to make a big ship that can jump like a small one, but with less weapons of a big ship without this component. And i will make stack the bonus of the component so you can have, for example, small ship and big ship with component x 3 jumpout at 1000km from the star, big ship with compent x 2 at 2000...big ship without component at 4000....it will need some balance to make all of these good option. I think this is close to the spirit of the game: right now i'm keeping design ship try to balance speed,weapon, fuelstorage and so on...and so add to this also the jumpout distance...so you can choose to have a big ship with lot of weapons and good jumpout distance, but few fuel...this will be good to protect one system becouse it will be strong and really good jump movement to move around a lot of points, but it will not be good to protect the sector for the low fuel.



< Message edited by Sparviero -- 4/19/2017 2:21:38 PM >

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Post #: 22
RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/19/2017 6:10:46 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sparviero


I also like the Smallershipsjumpsooner, while the minimum jump distance i will leave like in the vanilla: with the jump limitation of gravity well, we already should see a lot of ships travelling at normal speed.

That should be OK but just be sure to keep jump inaccuracy < minimum jump distance or you might end up with a ship constantly trying to jump to a target and always ending up farther than the minimum jump distance and then trying to jump again and again.

quote:




By the way, sorry for my English.

Your English is fine. I assumed you were a native speaker.
quote:



Now, I had a couple of idea...not really a suggestions for the mod, i hope to can play it very soon, but thoughts for the future.

I think will be great to have new components to influences the points you put in the mod.

- reaserch to lower the distance from the star a ship can jumpout, maybe with a specific line of components



Those are good ideas but I wanted to keep my mod comparable with all other mods which means no modding the moddable text files. I've already gone a little away from that with adding a bomber bay but I want to keep from adding more. Also, if I reuse existing components it ensures the AI can use them.
By basing the jump distance on a percentage of max ship size its like saying that increased construction skill allows making ships that are more structurally sound to tolerate the increased stress of jumping farther in the star's gravity well.

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Post #: 23
RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/19/2017 6:40:56 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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Disclaimer: I've never played with tech trading on but I've heard that its a very easy way to exploit the AI. This will be likewise. Its up to the player to not abuse it.


Want to buy or sell a mining station or a planet? Give a planet to an ally? Well, you couldn't unless it was in a contested area. Now you can. Every planet and base that you and your trade partner know about is available for buying or selling.



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Post #: 24
RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/19/2017 7:48:57 PM   
Sparviero

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RogerBacon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sparviero


I also like the Smallershipsjumpsooner, while the minimum jump distance i will leave like in the vanilla: with the jump limitation of gravity well, we already should see a lot of ships travelling at normal speed.

That should be OK but just be sure to keep jump inaccuracy < minimum jump distance or you might end up with a ship constantly trying to jump to a target and always ending up farther than the minimum jump distance and then trying to jump again and again.

quote:




By the way, sorry for my English.

Your English is fine. I assumed you were a native speaker.
quote:



Now, I had a couple of idea...not really a suggestions for the mod, i hope to can play it very soon, but thoughts for the future.

I think will be great to have new components to influences the points you put in the mod.

- reaserch to lower the distance from the star a ship can jumpout, maybe with a specific line of components



Those are good ideas but I wanted to keep my mod comparable with all other mods which means no modding the moddable text files. I've already gone a little away from that with adding a bomber bay but I want to keep from adding more. Also, if I reuse existing components it ensures the AI can use them.
By basing the jump distance on a percentage of max ship size its like saying that increased construction skill allows making ships that are more structurally sound to tolerate the increased stress of jumping farther in the star's gravity well.


You are damn right on both points...I didn't think about it :D


In anycase it looks like you are making distant worlds 2 xD

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Post #: 25
RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/20/2017 8:58:18 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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Freighter Frustration => Freighter Freedom

We've all been there. You order 20 cruisers to be built at your main space dock and suddenly find out that its out of steel. You have a steel mine on an asteroid nearby with tons of steel but no freighter seems to bring you the steel. You keep clicking on every freighter heading toward your space port or the mining station desperately hoping to see the "Transporting Steel" in the mission description. Eventually, in a few game months or a year or two, a freighter will deliver steel to your poor space port. Maybe they'll bring 10 or 20 units -- enough to finish one of those cruisers. Wouldn't it be nice if we could order a freighter to pick up and deliver the steel ourselves?

So, there are two problems.
1 Freighters don't pick up the things we want them to when we want them to.
2 When they do finally pick up something most of the time they only pick up a little and run mostly empty.

Number 2 really bothered me as I usually build freighters with 5K or more cargo space and I hated to see 90+% of it wasted.

Solutions

1 Freighters will try to fill up
Freighters will now try to fill up if their destination is a colony or a space port. They will keep their vanilla behavior if they are delivering to a constructor or a mining station that just needs a few units of something for an upgrade.

Here's a freighter delivering chromium to my main space port. I don't think I'll have any chromium shortages in the near future. :)


And here's a freighter delivering just enough material to my gambling casino so it can perform an upgrade.


2 Order a manual cargo mission. As easy as 1, 2, 3

Well, as easy as alt-1, alt-2, alt-3
Select the origin of the cargo mission (i.e. da place with da goods) and press alt-1.
Select the destination and press alt-2
Select the freighter you want to perform the mission and press alt-3.

That's it. The freighter will stop whatever its doing and immediately carry out your order. A true dictator should settle for no less.



< Message edited by RogerBacon -- 4/21/2017 1:12:58 PM >

(in reply to Sparviero)
Post #: 26
RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/21/2017 2:30:07 AM   
Dakkon7


Posts: 30
Joined: 10/25/2016
Status: offline
Wow, a lot of the changes you have made are pretty impressive. Good job.

(in reply to RogerBacon)
Post #: 27
RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/21/2017 7:29:28 AM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 4587
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: online
The mission information looks really nice. The thing that should be there all along.

As for manually bullying freighters around, I do not like it. But it is optional so that is no big issue.

(in reply to Dakkon7)
Post #: 28
RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/21/2017 1:19:12 PM   
RogerBacon

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 5/17/2000
From: Miami, Florida, U.S.A.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

The mission information looks really nice. The thing that should be there all along.

As for manually bullying freighters around, I do not like it. But it is optional so that is no big issue.


Well, since the mod allows the state to build its own freighters as well as the private sector freighters you might not think of it as bullying them around if you limit it to your state freighters. Think of them as military supply ships.

(in reply to Bingeling)
Post #: 29
RE: "Hyping" my forthcoming mod (pun intended) - 4/21/2017 7:23:17 PM   
Uncle Lumpy


Posts: 106
Joined: 7/1/2005
Status: offline
A lot of this sounds really good!! I think you're addressing some obvious issues. Thanks for all of your work on this!

I personally like the idea of being able to have freighters actually move vital resources (which I have already stock piled) when needed. That's been one of the major frustrations of the game: having a ton of a given resource, along with numerous mines of it, only to have a "shortage" because two or three hundred freighters seem to be unable to move enough of it to where it's needed.

_____________________________

I once heard there was a garage, which some said was air tight.

(in reply to RogerBacon)
Post #: 30
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