ORIGINAL: US87891
Thank you cardas. That will make things easier. Please feel free to chime in with more.
We always try to check and verify before we change data. MO takes everything with a teaspoon of salt [:D]
Wheh, one less thing to worry about then. [:)]
Dutch issues. The previous post were mostly minor things, this is the real meat of the issue as far as I'm concerned. No, in the big picture the errors here are not significant, regardless they are still the most severe. These are all inherited from the stock database. As with the previous post I'll copy&past(&modify) from some earlier post I've made about the subject.
This time I will start with Dutch devices and to begin with we got the device 1637: 7.5cm/45 No6 AA. This weapon is used on a lot of Dutch ships and I have no clue as to what gun it is. Though to be fair I haven't got much of an oversight overall as to what kind of 7.5cm gun the Dutch actually had to begin with. The following guns are ones I'm aware of;
7.5cm/35 - Krupp gun, naval gun.
7.5cm/40 - Krupp gun (might have also been made by Bofors, but a Krupp design), naval gun.
7,5cm S. Aut. No.2 - ?, naval gun.
7.5cm/? - Bofors?, AA gun.
12pdr/12cwt HA Mk V - British, AA gun.
I recall reading that the 12pdr was numbered as 7.5cm No. 10, so that imply they had 10 different 7.5cm gun versions from whenever they started numbering them. Probably late 1800s. I don't know if the S. Aut. followed a different numbering scheme though.
There are sources that claim that some of the Gouvernementsmarine ships got either 7.5 cm/40 or maybe 7.5 cm/35 Krupp guns. Unknown if the 7.5 cm/40 are the same as the S.Aut.No.2. The No.2 is found on the plans for Sirius and Wega (Med GM class ships).
The Bofors 7.5 cm AA gun were used on the Admiralen destroyers. Also maybe van Oranje and perhaps Soerabaja. It might also be that e.g. van Oranje had a Siderius gun and the Admiralen destroyers had Bofors guns with at least different breaches.
Some ships that received British 12 pdrs during the conflict. An example ingame is the Jan van Amstel class.
It's a mess at least to me and with what sources I got available to me. The take away point is though that there is probably too many heavy AA capable guns at the moment. Many Dutch auxiliaries should probably only have 7.5cm naval guns, not DP guns. I leave it up to you as to how to deal with it.
There are also many places referencing 3.7cm guns on the Gouvernementsmarine ships. These might be Gericke or Hotchkiss guns. Link to a forum where there's an image of the Gericke gun:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/t ... +1919-1942
Don't know a whole lot about the gun though. Probably quite a useless weapon going by the WitP mechanics.
Finally actual device fixes. The 15cm guns that the Dutch have at the moment are rather bad, much worse than what I believe is justified.
1630: 15.cm/50 No. 11
Range: 21 -> 28
Accuracy: 47 -> 50
Penetration: 86 -> 128
Anti-armor: 43 -> 64
1631: 15.cm/50 No. 10
Range: 21 -> 28
Accuracy: 47 -> 50 (or ~52, to represent De Ruyter being a superior gun platform compared to Tromp)
Penetration: 86 -> 128
Anti-armor: 43 -> 64
1632: 15.cm/50 No. 9
Range: 21 -> 28
Accuracy: 47 -> 50 (or ~52, to represent De Ruyter being a superior gun platform compared to Tromp)
Penetration: 86 -> 128
Anti-armor: 43 -> 64
1641: 15.cm/50 No. 6
Range: 21 -> 23
Penetration: 86 -> 128
Anti-armor: 43 -> 64
Guessed/made up values for the old 3.7 cm/20 naval gun:
Range: 3
Accuracy: 28
Penetration: 6
Effect: 10
Anti-armor: 3
Anti-soft: 7
Made up values for an old 7.5 cm/40 naval gun:
Range: 12
Accuracy: 30
Penetration: 24
Effect: 15
Anti-armor: 12
Anti-soft: 14
---
Now to the ship classes.
First of all this is a great place to get plans for the Dutch ships if you want to check them out:
http://www.gahetna.nl/collectie/archief ... adid/4.MST
There are several Dutch ships that suffers from having an extremely low maneuver value, clearly in error. Furthermore they for some unimaginable reason have to putter around at 6 knots as their cruise speed. A significant issue due to the hex nature of the game. Pretty much no other nationality is stuck at such low cruise speed either (unless they have a ship class that has a max speed of 6 or less).
Because of the more extensive errors I can't use exactly the same format as in the previous post. In a still hopefully easily read format, here are the ship fixes:
Java (220): Deck armor should be 25. 50 mm is the sloped armor deck behind the belt, the horizontal deck was 25 mm. Unless this is a conscious design decision to make up for the fact that the slope isn't otherwise represented in the game. 40mm Bofors guns should be in twin mounts, not singles.
De Ruyter (221, 222): Turret armor should be 100. 40mm Bofors guns should be 4 facing "Right Side", 4 facing "Left Side", 2 facing "Rear".
Tromp (223, 224): Turret armor should be 25.
KXIV Class (234): Slot 3 should be facing "Center". Slot 5 and 6 should be 2 pdrs.
O16 Class (237): Slot 3 should be facing "Center". Slot 5 and 6 should be 2 pdrs.
O19 Class (238): Slot 3 should be facing "Center". Slot 6 and 7 should be 2 pdrs.
P17 Mot. Launch (263): Original plans at least seems to have been for a 20 mm Hispano gun on the front. What they actually were equipped with is unknown to me.
Following is the more verbose fixes.
227: Admiralen Batch I: Modify weapons
[center]12 cm No.4 - Front 2(1)
12 cm No.4 - Rear 2(1)
7.5 cm AA - Right 1(1)
7.5 cm AA - Left 1(1)
12.7 mm MG - Right 2(1)
12.7 mm MG - Left 2(1)
53.3 cm W1 Torp - Center 6(3)
DC Rack - Rear 2(1)[/center]
228: Admiralen Batch II: Modify weapons
[center]12 cm No.5 - Front 2(1)
12 cm No.5 - Rear 2(1)
7.5 cm AA - Center 1(1)
2 pdr AA - Right 2(1)
2 pdr AA - Left 2(1)
12.7 mm MG - Right 2(1)
12.7 mm MG - Left 2(1)
53.3 cm W1 Torp - Center 6(3)
DC Rack - Rear 2(1)[/center]
Endurance: 2500 -> 2750
Technically both
Admiralen batches were designed with four DCTs (2 right, 2 left). On the other hand there was only one DC rack on the
Batch I per the original plans and none(?) on the
Batch II. Both had mine rails though and adding DC racks isn't exactly a major addition.
As I'm unsure as to exactly what kind of DCs they were originally made for and as it had probably changed by the time of the Pacific war I simply left it as 2 rear racks. How many ASW weapons you actually add is ultimately a balance matter anyway due to how the game functions.
They might have had torpedo reloads, or at least room for it. The
Batch II plans shows room for 4 reserve torpedoes as an example.
250, 289, 290: Sm GM
Generic class representing a few different ships. Most very somewhat standardized but they weren't carbon copies. This is the length data for one of them, Bellatrix, if you want to calculate the maneuver value;
Length overall: 56,5 m
Length waterline: 53,4 m
Cruise speed: 6 -> 8 cruise speed
Endurance: 1600 -> 3000 endurance
Fuel: 120 -> 180 fuel
Maneuver: 30 -> 45 maneuver
Armament data is hard to come by for these ships but most seem to somewhat agree that they were very poorly armed. In fact they probably had no AA weapons at all (not even an MG) even by the time they were sunk. Potentially carrying a pair of 3.7 cm Gericke or Hotchkiss guns. Nothing I've found at least suggest that they ever carried any 7.5 cm AA gun.
I suggest removing the current 7.5 cm and maybe adding a pair of (new device) 3.7 cm guns, although it's questionable if it's worth adding those as devices. If you don't want to bother with making a fictional upgrade for the class then you might consider throwing them a bone and giving them an MG or two as AA, else they'll be stuck without any AA for the rest of the game. Otherwise you could simply give them a fictional upgrade that gives them some kind of AA but start them off with nothing.
This is a extremely minor thing, but about the art. Most ships of this generic class looked more or less like the Med GM ships (and thus the Med GM art). In fact I got no clue as to which ship the current art is supposed to represent, the closest I can think of is Zeeman, but it's still different. On the other hand this is the only class that uses this art so I'd assume it was custom made for it so I'm a bit lost there.
251, 291, 292: Med GM
Generic class once again. Using Sirius as standard.
Length overall: 58,60 m
Length waterline: 55,64 m
Cruise speed: 6 -> 8 cruise speed
Endurance: 3100 -> 3500 endurance
Fuel: 323 -> 235 fuel
Maneuver: 30 -> 43 maneuver
Same as previous, armament data is hard to come by. In fact, that's true for all of these so I'll just skip mentioning that from now on. Original plans has a "7,5 cm S. Aut. No.2" gun, front facing. No idea of any stats about that gun but it was certainly not an AA gun (max mount elevation: 15 degrees).
I'd suggest using a naval gun for these, 7.5 cm/40 perhaps. This would be the only weapon, front facing. Once again they may have completely lacked any AA when they were sunk.
If you make a fictional upgrade then you could have all of them get some AA weapons, while the "PC" version gets as extra either some depth charges or/and a British 12pdr/12cwt.
252: A Class
Length overall: 42,8 m
Length waterline: 41-42 m?
Cruise speed: 7 -> 8 cruise speed
Endurance: 700 -> 1200 endurance
Maneuver: 30 -> 67 maneuver
258: Arend
Length overall: 72 m
Length waterline: 70 m
Max speed: 12 -> 18 max speed
Cruise speed: 6 -> 12 cruise speed
Endurance: 3100 -> 4000 endurance
Fuel: 323 -> 275 fuel
Maneuver: 30 -> 51 maneuver
I don't have any good info on the following ships.
253: Merbaboe
Length waterline: 22,7 m?
Diesel engine?
Cruise speed: 6 -> 8 or 10
Endurance: 600 -> 625
Fuel: 120 -> 15
Maneuver: 30 -> 71
254: Alor
Length waterline: 29,3 m?
Diesel engine?
Cruise speed: 6 -> 8 or 10
Endurance: 1600 -> 1200
Fuel: 120 -> 33
Maneuver: 30 -> 71
255: Soemenep
Length waterline: 35,9 m?
Oil (VTE)?
Max speed: 12 -> 10
Cruise speed: 6 -> 8
Endurance: 600 -> 1200
Fuel: 120 -> 45
Maneuver: 30 -> 53
256: Djember
Length waterline: 32,5 m?
Diesel engine?
Cruise speed: 6 -> 10
Endurance: 600 -> 1360
Fuel: 120 -> 45
Maneuver: 30 -> 70
257: Ardjoeno
Length waterline: 21 m?
Diesel engine?
Max speed: 15 -> 10 max speed
Cruise speed: 6 -> 8 cruise speed
Fuel: 120 -> 20 fuel
Maneuver: 30 -> 71 maneuver
Finally several Dutch classes suffer from low ammo levels as standard. Because I don't know how you will change the armament I will refrain from pointing them out one by one, but many of the Dutch auxiliaries in the 250-292 slot range have much lower ammo than comparable classes from other nations. As an example the 26 ton HDML S1 Mot. Launch (259) get 8 ammo for its Browning MGs while 18 is a rather standard amount for such a weapon and that class of ship. In fact 8 might be the lowest any ship gets with an MG, even the 8 ton 14m Type LB Daihatsu (1279) gets 12 for its MG.
---
That's it for now. I'm sure there are things I forgot about, but that's at least a good chunk of it. Only the Soviets left now which I'll leave for later. If you want to start on them before that then basically some ship classes are wrongly equipped and some penetration values are suspiciously low.