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Which units are winterized in MWIF?

 
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Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/18/2017 1:58:52 PM   
Joseignacio


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In Raw 7.0 are considered winterized

quote:

If at least half of your attacking land units are MTN, ski troops (AsA option 65), Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian, or white print Soviet units


whereas in the 2d10 table they include White print SSs...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/16701/4DE6BBC9E76A45BCAA265099708CDC59.jpg
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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/18/2017 2:22:27 PM   
Joseignacio


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Also, the table says that there is a +1 per "japanese, australian, or USA marine white print" attacking jungle. I guess until the limit of the jungle penalty.

But anyway, Is it per japanese marine, australian marine o usa marine, or more probably japanese unit australian unit or usa marine?

I guess it should be this last one because I don't think there are AUS MAR...

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/18/2017 2:35:58 PM   
Joseignacio


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In both cases, is it considered that the limit of positive bonuses the units give is limited by the penalty of snow/jungle or it doesn't have a limit?

I went through the FAQ as well and it's not clear for me.

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/18/2017 3:56:14 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

In Raw 7.0 are considered winterized

quote:

If at least half of your attacking land units are MTN, ski troops (AsA option 65), Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian, or white print Soviet units


whereas in the 2d10 table they include White print SSs...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/16701/4DE6BBC9E76A45BCAA265099708CDC59.jpg

It depends on whether you play with the 1d10 or the optional 2d10.

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/18/2017 4:00:25 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Also, the table says that there is a +1 per "japanese, australian, or USA marine white print" attacking jungle. I guess until the limit of the jungle penalty.

But anyway, Is it per japanese marine, australian marine o usa marine, or more probably japanese unit australian unit or usa marine?

I guess it should be this last one because I don't think there are AUS MAR...

With 2d10 there is no limit and can become a positive modifier. However, do not forget that the unit must be also be a white print. With 1d10 it is different.

With 2d10 the Japanese White Print gives +1 in Jungle. Same with Australian White Print. And same with a US White Print Marine. And they must be Corps, or Army sized. Not to many of them around.

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/18/2017 4:02:01 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

In both cases, is it considered that the limit of positive bonuses the units give is limited by the penalty of snow/jungle or it doesn't have a limit?

I went through the FAQ as well and it's not clear for me.

With 2d10 there is no limit. The positive modifier can be higher than the negative, so there can be a positive total modifier.

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/18/2017 5:16:05 PM   
Joseignacio


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Thanks

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/18/2017 6:32:36 PM   
Courtenay


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The white print SS being winterized was an old rule, subsequently changed by ADG. The chart predates that change. SS white print units are NOT winterized.

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/19/2017 10:18:38 AM   
Joseignacio


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It's old, true. But it seemed to me to be newer than 7.0, after all, some of the problems I have with 7.0 is that it's pretty old by now as well.

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/19/2017 5:54:31 PM   
paulderynck


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The SS being winterized is very old. Probably 14 years old.

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/19/2017 9:29:18 PM   
Joseignacio


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Raw 7.0 dates from 2004

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/19/2017 10:48:42 PM   
paulderynck


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The copyright on the 2D10 I have is 2003 and it shows no SS are winterized.

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/20/2017 8:16:24 AM   
Joseignacio


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Ok, what I mean is:

- You mentioned that the SS winterized was probably 14 years old. This is a guesstimation, so I mentioned the age of RAW 7 because it's almost 13 years old and they could be contemporary.

- Now, if you are referring to the A3 size, full colour tables included in the WIF pack, one of them reads Copyright 2000 (the one about land combat) and the other 2003. Anyway, I am not saying the 2d10 wasn't earlier than the RAW 7, I was wondering if the 2d10 version which includes SS as winterized was earlier than RAW 7 and so SS were winterized or not. I think the USSR is overpowered in this aspect when winter comes, and the SS help to balance it.

Anyway I'll check at home if I have the "new" 2d10 and check it's copyright date. But I was not starting a discussion to trash the game in any way but to know this detail which is important for me.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/20/2017 10:06:55 AM >

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/20/2017 12:46:29 PM   
Orm


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The 2d10 table to MWIF uses is included in RAC. It is the last two pages of RAC.

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/20/2017 1:14:33 PM   
Joseignacio


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Thanks, didn't know that and will help in the future...

For example, now that I am going through the tutorials (at the moment I am at tutorial 10) i realized a mistake in it that made me worried,

quote:


Overrun naval units either do a forced
rebase, are destroyed, or are captured. It
doesn't matter whether they are organized or
not.
.



now I see in the RAC that MWIF treats it like WIF instead. The only situation on which what the tutorial says may be true is in Vichy collapse and maybe it was posible through the surprise impulse as well, but the last one was not in the RAW7 although there are references showing it may have been in the past.

RAC was very useful to check that the game is ok, it's just the tutorial.





< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/20/2017 6:24:44 PM >

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/20/2017 11:03:08 PM   
paulderynck


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I think you'll find the two agree and that RAW7 Surprise rules tell you that organized but surprised naval units are rolled for.

About the SS winterized, it was simply a matter of interest, not trashing or argumentative, to show that the change in 2D10 pre-dated RAW7. In fact the change was made because players (or the designer, or both) had found the opposite of your experience. It was the Germans that were too powerful with the SS being winterized.

Edit: Not that the Germans were too powerful everywhere, but could be at places that really counted, like Leningrad and Rostov.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 2/20/2017 11:05:03 PM >


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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/21/2017 6:45:42 AM   
Orm


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With the winterized SS it was to easy to get a German 'super' attack force for the winter impulses. Many times it got better odds in winter than a summer attack would.

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/21/2017 7:24:17 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I think you'll find the two agree and that RAW7 Surprise rules tell you that organized but surprised naval units are rolled for.


That's what I remembered, but going to RAW 7 I couldn't find that. Although the text in the Tutorial means that overrun naval units are rolled for, regardless of their organization status, and this is not true in general terms. I will try to post what I found related to this in RAW7 later.

EDIT: I found the text. But as I said before, what is in the tutorial, in truth only applies to these two cases: Vichy and Surprise.

quote:

About the SS winterized, it was simply a matter of interest, not trashing or argumentative, to show that the change in 2D10 pre-dated RAW7. In fact the change was made because players (or the designer, or both) had found the opposite of your experience. It was the Germans that were too powerful with the SS being winterized.

Edit: Not that the Germans were too powerful everywhere, but could be at places that really counted, like Leningrad and Rostov.


Maybe the GE are overpowered against USSR in the game, this is debatable. Could be true. But in winter, if the URSS player can put together 5 or 6 winterized corps they can more than compensate the snow penalty and the enemy armor, for example would not have the defense bonus because of the climate.

In general, aside of some scattered actions, I consider this overestimate the real USSR capabilities. I have had like 7 or 8 winterized russian units counteratack in a snow impulse and blow away one armor unit of mine. Is that realistic?

And after a normal scrap the USSR player many times has a 30% increasing to 50% maybe of winterized units, especially after the arrival of siberians.

OTOH, the SS are like 3 or 4 units along the game not countimg the garrisons or national militias, for obvious reasons (difficulty to move and double garrison value). So it could not unbalance the game, just soften some edges anyway.



< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/21/2017 1:55:25 PM >

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/21/2017 7:30:34 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

With the winterized SS it was to easy to get a German 'super' attack force for the winter impulses. Many times it got better odds in winter than a summer attack would.


GE has only like 5 Finnish, one of which need to be lef behind to protect Helsinki at least. Plus 1 or 2 mtn corps plus 1 mtn div.

3 or 4 more corps of SS (winterized) could make them be strong enough if everybody concentrated in the Leningrad area, for example, but that would leave the rest of the front wide open for URSS concentrated winterized units attacks.

In MWIF maybe you are right, because you can really walk your way from Finland to Moscow, but in WIF it was really atypical because of the off-map terrain/supply, so it was unusual to count with the finnish until Leningrad had been taken which many times never happpened or it happened when the front was at Siberia and the USSR player could not defend it properly fromo succesive attacks.

Then you only have the MTN for defense purposes in exposed areas, and that's too few, IMO.

I was whinking of simply using SS and the handful of MTN to defend the exposed areas of the front in snow.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/21/2017 7:33:30 AM >

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/21/2017 7:42:19 AM   
Orm


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Consider all the German MTN, winterized SS, and the Finnish units concentrated to AGN. The defence of Leningrad gets close to impossible in winter when the defence should be easier.

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/21/2017 7:58:22 AM   
Joseignacio


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It would be worse after the fall of Leningrad, with 11 winterized units running freely on the map instead of 7/8 (or 2/3 if only MTN)...

But in Leningrad, ... first as always you need to discount the climate malus. Then it's a city and has 2 factories IIRW. Then, the usual attack (at least in WIF, MWIF is more flexible because there are not off-map boxes) includes the Finnish attacking from the lake, which means they are probably dying if the weather changes after an attack that leaves them disorganized or if the weather changes the next impuse even if they are organized but fail to take the city. The attack will be assault (city, defensor's choice), so you cannot blitz them out of the city, and any enemy loss that doesn't mean losing the city will be easlily replaced with a dirt cheap MIL next turn.

Maybe it's in my group and I am biased, but in WIF I have seen very often Leningrad resist till or even after Moscow has fallen, because of all this.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/21/2017 1:57:55 PM >

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/21/2017 8:15:38 PM   
paulderynck


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Land O-chit, engineers, HQ support, wintertime to half the Leningrad swamp defence, and all the winterized you can muster - hard enough already for Russia to hold let alone with every attacking unit besides the HQ and Eng being winterized.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 2/21/2017 8:16:14 PM >


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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/22/2017 7:13:10 AM   
Joseignacio


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The swamp converted to forest was implicit. If not, Leningrad could resist forever. Even with it becoming forest because of snow it's unprobable enough IMO ... well, different experiences.

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/22/2017 7:12:25 PM   
paulderynck


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The point is that the less winterized units you have at your disposal, the less the swamp becoming forest matters.

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 2/22/2017 8:01:01 PM   
Joseignacio


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I know, but when you were listing "how easy" to take Leningrad you mentioned that there is no swamp in snow.

I was meaning that I took that for granted, because I still have to see Leningrad taken being an active swamp.

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 3/3/2017 12:39:10 AM   
joshuamnave

 

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Can someone explain why there is no winterized bonus in the attack?




Note: The soviets were given the option to lead the defense with winterized units which I accidentally declined. I was planning to manually subtract two from the die roll to compensate. But the Axis were not given the option. If it's +1 for every Finnish or Ski unit, there should be an additional +5 to the die roll. Am I misunderstanding the rule or is it a bug? Maybe because every unit attacking is winterized?

Also note: This was the surprise impulse. The Soviets weren't expecting a winter DOW and so both units in Leningrad are reserves that came in disorganized. Germany DOW'd and activated the Finnish planning to take advantage of the snow effects - the extra hex side and frozen swamp. It's a low odds attack that risks relatively little (worst case - 2 divisions and a Finnish infantry) for possible huge rewards.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Zartacla -- 3/3/2017 12:45:46 AM >

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 3/3/2017 3:06:18 AM   
joshuamnave

 

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Ok, definite bug here. I reloaded and this time chose to defend with winterized units. Doing so made the die roll modifier +5 instead of +2, which means the game automatically gave the attacking bonus (and required losses to come from winterized when the attack failed). So the attacker was only given the bonus if the defender also got (and took) the bonus, and then the attacker wasn't given the option, it happened automatically (although that might be because there were only winterized units in play).

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RE: Which units are winterized in MWIF? - 3/3/2017 7:02:31 AM   
Joseignacio


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Looks like that.

As for this:

quote:

Note: The soviets were given the option to lead the defense with winterized units which I accidentally declined. I was planning to manually subtract two from the die roll to compensate. But the Axis were not given the option. If it's +1 for every Finnish or Ski unit, there should be an additional +5 to the die roll. Am I misunderstanding the rule or is it a bug? Maybe because every unit attacking is winterized?


In fact the restriction goes the other way round, there is no limit to how many winterized units, but on how few:

quote:

If at least half of your attacking land units are MTN, ski troops (AsA option 65), Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian, or white print Soviet units, you may lessen the odds reduction in snow or blizzard by 2 (i.e. snow has no effect and blizzard becomes a -1 odds shift).


Modifierd if you are using 2d10 CRT to +1 pero attacking winterized or -2 per defending winterized with no upper or lower limits.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 3/3/2017 7:03:59 AM >

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