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RE: Runs so Sloooow - 2/13/2017 4:11:28 PM   
Peter Fisla


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quote:

ORIGINAL: General Patton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

quote:

ORIGINAL: casebier

well i'm guessing the campaign runs well off your (paulus/peter) machines?


just curious what are you two using?




Intel i7 6850K CPU, ASUS X-99 Deluxe II motherboard, ASUS 1080 GTX video card, 64GB of Ram, Win7 64bit - this is my development machine


Now I understand why the expansion is trying to KILL my computer. I'm very disappointed....GP

quote:

AMD A8-352M CPU


Well, you have a laptop CPU; you can still run the larger scenarios...the game will be a bit slower.

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 2/13/2017 4:12:04 PM >

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 31
RE: Runs so Sloooow - 2/13/2017 4:14:11 PM   
btd64


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Well, I have been thinking about getting a Desktop. Guess I need to now....GP

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RE: Runs so Sloooow - 2/13/2017 4:52:13 PM   
Dietrich53

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla
A unit can move in Advance Segment, hence it can discover new enemy hex so yes I do need to check for LOS.


Hi Peter,

forgot about that! You are right of course. I apologize. Keep up the tremendously good work!

Dietrich


(in reply to Peter Fisla)
Post #: 33
RE: Runs so Sloooow - 2/13/2017 5:25:44 PM   
Paullus

 

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I'm running two machines.

1 - AMD FX-8350 CPU, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD3 motherboard, Gigabyte GTX 1060 3GB video card, 8GB RAM, Win 10 64Bit

2 - Laptop Intel i7-4702MQ. Intel 4600 HD and Nvidia 750M Video card, 8GB RAM, Win 10 64Bit.

Game runs well on both systems. Should add that I am using "Razer Game Booster" on my Laptop which speeds up my games. This could be something to try on Laptops. When I start my games it turns off unnecessary programs, services etc and turns them on when I exit my games.

_____________________________

For my part, I shall do my duty as a general; I shall see to it that you are given the chance of a successful action. /Lucius Aemilius Paullus

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RE: Runs so Sloooow - 2/13/2017 10:57:19 PM   
Hailstone


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The hardware requirements for the DLC are just way too low and beta testing on higher end computers is just ludicrous. I knew the slowness of the game on many PC's that meet the minimum requirements was going to be real bad. That DLC has probably done more harm than good by really exposing its major inherent weakness. Rico has provided better scenarios that are very playable on PC's that meet the requirements set forth in TotH and he freely donates them to the community. Rico, thanks for all you have done. Maybe you should hire him because what we get for money is a complete waste to many of us. I only bought the DLC to support the efforts made in the hopes TotH will emerge as something to behold and brother I still have faith in TotH.

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RE: Runs so Sloooow - 2/13/2017 11:53:00 PM   
Rosseau

 

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As mentioned in earlier post, after several years HPS got things moving with Tigers Unleashed beta that uses all cores available. So my guess is processor speed (3.6 vs 2.7) is the big thing that will make a difference with this dlc.

And yes, I bought the dlc pretty much because of all of Rico's and others free scenarios. No other reason honestly.

< Message edited by rosseau -- 2/13/2017 11:57:25 PM >

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Post #: 36
RE: Runs so Sloooow - 2/14/2017 12:16:53 AM   
btd64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paullus

I'm running two machines.

1 - AMD FX-8350 CPU, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD3 motherboard, Gigabyte GTX 1060 3GB video card, 8GB RAM, Win 10 64Bit

2 - Laptop Intel i7-4702MQ. Intel 4600 HD and Nvidia 750M Video card, 8GB RAM, Win 10 64Bit.

Game runs well on both systems. Should add that I am using "Razer Game Booster" on my Laptop which speeds up my games. This could be something to try on Laptops. When I start my games it turns off unnecessary programs, services etc and turns them on when I exit my games.


I set up Razer and it did help a little. Not much but unit move time improved by about 20%. I'm hoping to pickup a Desktop machine soon....GP

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AKA General Patton

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DW Series-Beta Tester
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Post #: 37
RE: Runs so Sloooow - 2/14/2017 12:54:54 AM   
dave68124

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dietrich53

I have about a 3-4 sec delay when mowing at daylight (night is fine). I have a iMac 3.2 GHz i5, 32 GB and run Windows 7 under Parallel Desktop while having programs open on the OSX side. It is playable, but somewhat inconvenient.
One area of streamlining is the Advance Phase. Since nobody is allowed to shoot there is no reasoon for LOS checking. This whole section can be taking out of the code.


A unit can move in Advance Segment, hence it can discover new enemy hex so yes I do need to check for LOS.

TotH is a single core application, the game doesn't take advantage of multi core CPU. When I started writing the game in 2006, I didn't have multi-core CPU. This is something I would like to address in the future, however there is no way I can make substantial changes to the code as that would be very labour intensive as well as I do not want to take a chance to make the game engine unstable by possibly introducing bugs in the process. The LOS and pathfinding functions are very CPU demanding (never mind the AI processing on top), more units on larger maps will be very CPU demanding. Also, these two functions are very complicated/detailed and I decided from the beginning to write them properly without taking shortcuts. I figured, I write the functions once and let the hardware catch up. It's extremely difficult to write these two complex functions and then come back to the code two/three years later and remember what I have done in the past and make the functionality more detailed...this type of process is prone to messing things up and introduces defects - I wanted to avoid this.

I can't off-load this processing to GPU because there are so many different versions of GPU and I'm only one developer.


I don't want to come off as a jerk because I get that you are just one developer and this likely isn't even your primary job. However, the new release of the Kursk DLC effectively just made your game defective by its very definition. It is virtually unplayable. Not sure if it was your decision to put out the DLC or not, but maybe suggest no more big campaign games if the engine cannot scale.

I am not calling your baby ugly, because you have produced a great game, but if you want to take it to the next level, then you are going to have to bring it up to current standards and not a 10 year old standard or start to use shortcuts (e.g., center point LOS) to reduce the single core CPU load. Otherwise this game will die on the vine.

One additional thought and I hope it is helpful - I found it odd that as the computer chews on the processing during the firing phase, I get almost instantaneous feedback on the result in the result window, then have to wait 5 or 10 seconds for the little bullets and sound. I tried turning off the sound and same lag. Is there something on the graphics side that can be tweaked that might be easier to tackle? Just a thought. Also, I have the saved file of the Kursk DLC where I gave up (about turn 8 or so) that I would happily share.

< Message edited by dave68124 -- 2/14/2017 1:07:18 AM >

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Post #: 38
RE: Runs so Sloooow - 3/2/2017 7:05:38 AM   
rico21

 

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Everyone will be able to see the Psel River...




Attachment (1)

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RE: Runs so Sloooow - 3/2/2017 8:19:15 AM   
Noypi53

 

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Hi rico!

Nice! Is this from your LnL Terrain Mod? Which mod are you using for the unit counters?

Keep the great work on the scenarios & mods!

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Post #: 40
Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 3/4/2017 3:49:31 PM   
UP844


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I was planning to bother you all with another pair of AAR about CG002 - Prokhorovka.

I regret to give up this, but the delay between an order and its execution has become so long (70 seconds) I have been able to read an entire Osprey book during one half of a Movement Segment.

I was attempting to bring the Russian armored reinforcements (T-34s and SU-76s) to the front: I spent about half an hour to move a single tank . At such rate, moving 12 T-34s and 6 SU-76s will take approximately 9 hours.

I do not know if the LOS check is made for all the 630 hexes within the 14-hex LOS range, or only between the moving unit location and the enemy-occupied hexes. At night (with a 2-hex LOS range), the delay is negligible.

I do not think the issue resides with my PC: CPU use is 11-14% and memory use is 74.904 KB (17% of physical memory). I also tried installing Razer Game Booster, with no effect at all.

Some amount of delay has always been present in large scenario, but I feel it has dramatically increased since version 1.0.52.

I attach a saved game file: I would like to know how much delay you experience if you move the T-34 M41 in hex 28,32.

P.S. in this open terrain, the failure to fire at long range of AI infantry led to the almost complete destruction of the SS squads before the end of day 1. German infantry re-appeared on turn 16, when an engineer force (I suppose they are day 2 reinforcements) appeared on the southeast area of the map. Russian infantry losses were not light, but they were inflicted by tanks only - no German squad ever managed to come close enough to fire its inherent firepower.


Attachment (1)

_____________________________

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Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

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RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 3/4/2017 9:43:12 PM   
Paullus

 

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I'll take a look tomorrow. Just home from a party

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Post #: 42
RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 3/4/2017 10:20:29 PM   
UP844


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Thanks, Paullus

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

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Post #: 43
RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 3/5/2017 12:19:17 PM   
Paullus

 

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Well it does take some time on my computers as well, 35-45 seconds. Lowering the day visibility would help. Peter will start looking at optimizations on this logic starting ASAP.

_____________________________

For my part, I shall do my duty as a general; I shall see to it that you are given the chance of a successful action. /Lucius Aemilius Paullus

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RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 3/5/2017 1:01:31 PM   
Peter Fisla


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Hi All,

The larger scenarios with maps that have a lot of elevations with units being too far apart will slow down the game engine because of Line of Sight and AI processing. UP844, I have done some testing with your saved game file and for me it takes about 30 seconds for the game engine to respond. The game does utilizes support for multi core CPUs, however the game engine wasn't written from group up to fully support multi-core CPUs. I'm hoping that soon to be released Visual Studio 2017 will further help me to better optimize my game engine however please keep in mind that putting too many assets on a large map will slow down the game play, depending how good your computer is. You need powerful desktop to run large scenarios. I will continue to update and better optimize the game engine for the future.

(in reply to Paullus)
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RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 3/5/2017 6:24:50 PM   
Gerry4321

 

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In terms of LOS checking and the T-34 moving - the AI knows where all the German units are, even the "hidden" ones. So there should not be many hexes to check in the visibility range?


quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844

I was planning to bother you all with another pair of AAR about CG002 - Prokhorovka.

I regret to give up this, but the delay between an order and its execution has become so long (70 seconds) I have been able to read an entire Osprey book during one half of a Movement Segment.

I was attempting to bring the Russian armored reinforcements (T-34s and SU-76s) to the front: I spent about half an hour to move a single tank . At such rate, moving 12 T-34s and 6 SU-76s will take approximately 9 hours.

I do not know if the LOS check is made for all the 630 hexes within the 14-hex LOS range, or only between the moving unit location and the enemy-occupied hexes. At night (with a 2-hex LOS range), the delay is negligible.

I do not think the issue resides with my PC: CPU use is 11-14% and memory use is 74.904 KB (17% of physical memory). I also tried installing Razer Game Booster, with no effect at all.

Some amount of delay has always been present in large scenario, but I feel it has dramatically increased since version 1.0.52.

I attach a saved game file: I would like to know how much delay you experience if you move the T-34 M41 in hex 28,32.

P.S. in this open terrain, the failure to fire at long range of AI infantry led to the almost complete destruction of the SS squads before the end of day 1. German infantry re-appeared on turn 16, when an engineer force (I suppose they are day 2 reinforcements) appeared on the southeast area of the map. Russian infantry losses were not light, but they were inflicted by tanks only - no German squad ever managed to come close enough to fire its inherent firepower.



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Post #: 46
RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 3/5/2017 8:23:04 PM   
Peter Fisla


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Every time your friendly unit moves, the game needs to check every enemy hex if it actually contains enemy units, to see if there is a LOS or not.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gerry


In terms of LOS checking and the T-34 moving - the AI knows where all the German units are, even the "hidden" ones. So there should not be many hexes to check in the visibility range?


quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844

I was planning to bother you all with another pair of AAR about CG002 - Prokhorovka.

I regret to give up this, but the delay between an order and its execution has become so long (70 seconds) I have been able to read an entire Osprey book during one half of a Movement Segment.

I was attempting to bring the Russian armored reinforcements (T-34s and SU-76s) to the front: I spent about half an hour to move a single tank . At such rate, moving 12 T-34s and 6 SU-76s will take approximately 9 hours.

I do not know if the LOS check is made for all the 630 hexes within the 14-hex LOS range, or only between the moving unit location and the enemy-occupied hexes. At night (with a 2-hex LOS range), the delay is negligible.

I do not think the issue resides with my PC: CPU use is 11-14% and memory use is 74.904 KB (17% of physical memory). I also tried installing Razer Game Booster, with no effect at all.

Some amount of delay has always been present in large scenario, but I feel it has dramatically increased since version 1.0.52.

I attach a saved game file: I would like to know how much delay you experience if you move the T-34 M41 in hex 28,32.

P.S. in this open terrain, the failure to fire at long range of AI infantry led to the almost complete destruction of the SS squads before the end of day 1. German infantry re-appeared on turn 16, when an engineer force (I suppose they are day 2 reinforcements) appeared on the southeast area of the map. Russian infantry losses were not light, but they were inflicted by tanks only - no German squad ever managed to come close enough to fire its inherent firepower.





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RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 3/5/2017 9:05:20 PM   
Gerry4321

 

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Not sure I understand Peter. The AI keeps track of where units are so no other hexes need to be checked other than those hexes with enemy units, right?

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RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 3/5/2017 9:16:23 PM   
Rosseau

 

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What comes to mind is the ancient (and huge) HPS games moving along like lightning on almost any computer. They may have taken an easy way out LOS-wise, but there is an op-fire phase. I also sort of doubt their optimization was that great in 1999!

Not all games have big maps and lots of units, so maybe TotH is designed to be played out via smaller scenarios anyway. The real issue is with the DLC. After hundreds of user scenarios, I had to support it. But there are moral implications to selling a product that is mostly not going to work. That is for you folks to figure out.

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Post #: 49
RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 3/5/2017 9:22:45 PM   
Peter Fisla


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gerry

Not sure I understand Peter. The AI keeps track of where units are so no other hexes need to be checked other than those hexes with enemy units, right?


The LOS function needs to check enemy occupied hexes every time you move your unit, to see if your unit potentially moved into LOS of new enemy hex or your unit moved out of LOS of enemy hex (or both). The LOS function is also used for AI to evaluate possible human player targets because stuff like hindrance will affect the fire function.

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RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 3/6/2017 5:20:04 AM   
Missouri_Rebel


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Well I'm afraid that the performance issue seems to have found me as well.

I've spent a few nights carefully recreating Shilovo, a village on a hill overlooking the Don River. The problem is when I added the units and tried play testing it ran so slow as to make it unplayable. Maybe it's the hills? Maybe it's the 3 company's and a few more assets that ground things to a crawl but, honestly, it shouldnt have. I've seen way more units in the stock maps that ran better.

I am on a 6800k @ 3.4Ghz, installed on a 512 gb SSD, 32 gigs of 3000 RAM and a water cooled GTX 1080. Plenty of power to run any game I've come across at the highest settings. I even cut down on the map size to be 1X3 and got rid of the river section (but still has the hill) to no avail.

I'm pretty disappointed and think I'll be giving up on scenario creation as quickly as I picked it up.

EDIT

THE ISSUES SEEM TO BE MY OWN DOING BY NOT PROPERLY STRUCTURING A SCENARIO

< Message edited by Missouri_Rebel -- 3/7/2017 1:15:58 AM >


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RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 3/6/2017 5:25:12 AM   
Missouri_Rebel


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Here is the unfinished scenario. the .txt extension to .scn .

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 52
RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 3/6/2017 12:53:21 PM   
UP844


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paullus

Well it does take some time on my computers as well, 35-45 seconds.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

UP844, I have done some testing with your saved game file and for me it takes about 30 seconds for the game engine to respond.



Thanks for the tests: your replies confirm that - even with a PC more recent and powerful than mine - moving the T-34 closer to the front will then take a significant amount of time.

Assuming the tank is CE and able to use the road movement rate, it will take 10 to 15 minutes to move 20 hexes (spending some MPs to start, change elevation and changing its VCA). The Russian receives 18 AFVs as reinforcements on turns 13,14 and 15, which will then require 180 to 240 minutes to move.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Every time your friendly unit moves, the game needs to check every enemy hex if it actually contains enemy units, to see if there is a LOS or not.



The T-34 in the saved game file is approximately 50 hexes away from the nearest German unit (a broken SS squad in 3,81). Since the delay is much shorter in night turns, when visibility is 2 hexes, I suppose the LOS-checking routine does not perform the whole LOS-checking procedure if the range is greater than the visibility range. Is this assumption correct?

Some more remarks I hope could be helpful to solve the issue:

I have noticed, in CG001, that the delay does not significantly decrease even when there are very few enemy units on the map. By way of example, at the end of day 3, the only "enemy-occupied hexes" were a few hexes (about half a dozen) containing unpossessed German SW (which require a LOS check to decide if the SW counter must be displayed or not).

I also noticed that the delay does increase as the game progresses: I started another CG002 and moved a KV-1s on Turn 1: the delay is about 5-7 seconds (see attached save file), even though there are much more German units than in the saved game I attached above.

I launched the LOS tool to see if it could calculate the range between the T-34 and the nearest German unit: the message appearing in the LOS tool window reported that range was greater then the scenario visibility range, but it also stated "Check_LOS_FOW executed 2347 times" and "64.65 seconds".
Apparently, every LOS check took approximately 0.0275 seconds: what does, however, a single LOS check execution imply? Checking LOS between a unit and an enemy-occupied hex? In this case, checking LOS between the T-34 and all the enemy-occupied hexes (let's assume there are 30 of them) should not take more than 0.825 seconds. I'm quite puzzled .

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to Peter Fisla)
Post #: 53
RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 3/6/2017 2:16:46 PM   
CapnDarwin


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UP844, how big is the map in your test? Have you tested just one tank versus one tank starting out of visual range? I'm curious if the LOS routine is running the whole map instead of bailing out and saying "out of range".

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(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 54
RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 3/6/2017 4:41:51 PM   
UP844


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The test was performed with the CG002 scenario: I have not measured the map, but I think it is approx. 100 hexes high and 30 hexes wide.



_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 55
RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 3/7/2017 12:14:03 AM   
UP844


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Just for the sake of it, I launched CG002 playing the German side and leaving the set-up to the computer.

The Germans (37 units) set up in 18 hexes. The Russians (20 units) set up in 6 hexes. I launched the LOS tool and the routine was executed 50 times in 2.5 seconds.

How comes the same routine is executed a staggering 2347 times at a later time (see above) with no approx. 35-40 Russian units in as many hexes and - I believe - no more than 20 German units?

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 56
RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 5/24/2017 1:45:37 AM   
Hailstone


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I just upgraded my PC with an i7 8 core 7th generation processor at 4.7GHz 16M of DDR4 Ram and a video card with 8G of DDR4 memory and I still can't play the DLC. I can't complain because I knew this would happen before purchasing the game but I was hoping that supporting TotH development would address this and fix it. So far all I hear is crickets. Look, as the game is with the original scenarios it's fine. Just don't put out DLC's with ambitious scenarios that will make TotH look pretty bad.

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 57
RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 5/25/2017 9:18:16 PM   
Paullus

 

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We are looking into this but it will take some time. Could you just give us some more information Hailstone of your new try with the DLC? What did you try and what did you experience?



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For my part, I shall do my duty as a general; I shall see to it that you are given the chance of a successful action. /Lucius Aemilius Paullus

(in reply to Hailstone)
Post #: 58
RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 5/25/2017 9:35:56 PM   
UP844


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Excuse me for intruding but I attached a save file game in post #40, stating that I had a 70-second delay before a unit completed its move. Both you and Peter tried the saved game, with a delays ranging from 30 to 45 seconds.

I have purchased Kursk as soon as it was released and I would gladly purchase it again tomorrow just to support "the Cause". I cannot avoid wondering, however, if the scenarios have been properly tested before release, given the results you obtained.

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to Paullus)
Post #: 59
RE: Goodbye, Prokhorovka - 5/25/2017 11:41:59 PM   
dox44

 

Posts: 566
Joined: 5/7/2000
From: the woodlands, texas
Status: offline
i don't see how anyone could have tested the campaign...its unplayable...well this side of eternity.

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 60
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