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Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/28/2017 4:19:41 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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Does anyone have ever experienced snow in Central Ukraina in June??!!?????




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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/28/2017 4:23:33 PM   
PeteGarnett

 

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Had the same in current game - thankfully I'm the Allies!

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/28/2017 4:28:31 PM   
juntoalmar


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Do you mean, on my holidays?

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/28/2017 4:29:09 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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Interesting to know why the designers of the game have extended artic like climate in Central Europe!!!
(and if it could be amended)

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/28/2017 4:41:58 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeteGarnett

Had the same in current game - thankfully I'm the Allies!


You can be penalized, and heavily as well, even as the allies who are defending: for example, freezed rivers!

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/28/2017 4:57:11 PM   
Orm


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quote:

freezed rivers!



Did you perhaps mean frozen lakes? I do not think that there is such a thing as frozen rivers.

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/28/2017 5:08:09 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

freezed rivers!



Did you perhaps mean frozen lakes? I do not think that there is such a thing as frozen rivers.

If so, I'd suggest it as a modification for next version of World in flames.

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Post #: 7
RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/28/2017 5:49:28 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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The weather roll is for May/June. Given that it is the 5th impulse, You're probably still in May (theoretically).

Note that the probabilities for the next weather roll are 90% for Fine and 10% for Rain in the Arctic.

The Impulse counter advancing by 2 is more distressing for the Germans - the turn might end far sooner than normal.

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/28/2017 5:53:55 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

freezed rivers!



Did you perhaps mean frozen lakes? I do not think that there is such a thing as frozen rivers. Remember the scale for MWIF: each hex is ~90 kilometers across. The rivers shown on the map are all very formidable (i.e., wide).


If so, I'd suggest it as a modification for next version of World in flames.

Rivers only affect land combat in MWIF. When the weather is freezing, frozen rivers are most likely still a major problem for the attacker.

---

As for where the weather zone boundaries are, that is totally data driven by the CSV file on map terrain. So it could be modified without any impact on any of the program's code. Not that I recommend doing that - and I am certainly not going to get involved with any such project.

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 1/28/2017 5:55:33 PM >


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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/28/2017 5:54:21 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

freezed rivers!



Did you perhaps mean frozen lakes? I do not think that there is such a thing as frozen rivers.

If so, I'd suggest it as a modification for next version of World in flames.
warspite1

This game - in its various versions - has been around a very long time. I'd give it a chance before jumping to hasty conclusions. It is simply the best war game ever made. FACT.


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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/28/2017 8:32:48 PM   
Centuur


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There are some more strange things occurring if one thinks that the weatherconditions in MWIF are the exact ones which you are rolling for in an area. The designers of World in Flames have designed the game with weather conditions in place which will effect the capabilities of the armed forces in an area during the impulses in the turns.
The names they gave the weather conditions are abstract and in no way reflect the exact weather taking place in a certain hex. They were chosen to reflect existing weather types to make the game playable. After all: it's easier to say that it snows, than to say that the weather is "stage 4"...





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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/30/2017 2:46:20 PM   
Joseignacio


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You need to draw the line somewhere.

Part of the artic climate is drawn in what we could call West Ukraine, but also Easter Poland and northern Rumania. But I mainly think of it as Northern Ukrania, not Central Ukrania (it's just North of Kiev)

I guess you could have had 20 or 40 climate areas in the map but there are only 6 for simplification purposes, and in except in asia and Oceania maps there are only 4. So I guess it seemed more logical to the designer that in May the climate in Northern and Western Ukraine and Eastern Poland the climate is more like in Moscow that like in France and Northern Spain.

So I think it's ok, considering there are not 20 climate areas. And that the possibility to have snow in that month is really small. Don't remember even if the previous periods have to have been real bad to, so it would be a really sever winter weather, which would be reflected by modifiers to the dice roll that may have led to that possibility.

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/30/2017 4:49:12 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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Jose, I still think that "Artic zone" should not extend to those areas, and not even to norther Russia upto the latitude of Baltic state including probably Leningrad and Moscow as well. Very harsh weather in winter, yes, but not at the levels of "artic". In that way, you'd never see snow in June(??!!!)


Steve Hokansen, your work is just monumental.

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/30/2017 11:27:27 PM   
RickInVA

 

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May I gently suggest that it is possible to take the definition of the areas and the name of the weather too literally.

Arctic is, to me, a reference to areas that can, and often do, experience extreme cold. It is obviously not, and never intended to be, a representation of solely those areas north of the arctic circle.

Likewise Snow does not always mean snow, but whatever combination of weather attributes that, for that game turn, produce the impact to movement, supply, and combat that the designers decided was appropriate. Snow is certainly a lesser impacting weather event than Storm, different than rain, etc.

All things have to be called something so that they can be referenced and applied, but there is no need to take the labels litterally.

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/31/2017 8:28:25 AM   
Joseignacio


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I agree abot the name, it's obvious that the area is not purely, and of course not even mostly arctic, although it includes the arctic.

However for me snow is snow. There are other weathers that are more related to what you speak of (mud, wind, ...) like storms.

In fact, I don't think it's really surprising to have snow in North Ukrania or East Poland in May. Very unprobable yes, but not awesome.

That's what the game reflects. IIRW there are not a 10% possibilities in truth, I guess for that climate to be possible, to have more than 0% possibilities of snow in May you need to have a "+1" or "+2" in the previous month climate (roll). It means that the probablity goes down to 2% maybe. So I think it's mostly accurate.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 1/31/2017 8:31:11 AM >

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/31/2017 5:20:59 PM   
paulderynck


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I live in a place that is considered in the "arctic zone". Normally the golf courses here are open from mid-March to late-October. But... in my lifetime, it has snowed here in every month of the year, July and August included.

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/31/2017 8:15:41 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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To be sincere: those extreme weather excursions in that area are "killing" the realism of the campaign. such harsh weather , prolongued for a good number of simulated weeks in the middle of summer, are making the Barbarossa operation virtually impossible;

if the phisycal board game the map has the same weather boundaries, I'd agree with my opponent to disregard such inconveninence - such as snow and blizzard in summer - should they arise as a consequence of a die roll.

I'd just suggest to ADG, if i could, to consider the creation of another weather zone with different parameters, if they'd like to simulate the climate peculiarities of areas like Central Europe- Asia- rather then include them in further extreme weather habits such the Arctic ones.

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/31/2017 8:32:16 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

To be sincere: those extreme weather excursions in that area are "killing" the realism of the campaign. such harsh weather , prolongued for a good number of simulated weeks in the middle of summer, are making the Barbarossa operation virtually impossible;

if the phisycal board game the map has the same weather boundaries, I'd agree with my opponent to disregard such inconveninence - such as snow and blizzard in summer - should they arise as a consequence of a die roll.

I'd just suggest to ADG, if i could, to consider the creation of another weather zone with different parameters, if they'd like to simulate the climate peculiarities of areas like Central Europe- Asia- rather then include them in further extreme weather habits such the Arctic ones.
warspite1

Honestly adarbrauner, if this kills the 'realism', then I wonder if this is the game for you. I hope you can come to terms with it and embrace this wonderful game for what it is. But if realism is a must then I fear you are not going to like (a few examples):

- Weather
- The fact that cruisers are ASW ships
- Monitors can't effectively shore bombard
- Many of the ship and air factors are skewed as a balancing item
- The Japanese economy takes steroids and can not only build Yamato class carriers - but can build aircraft for them too!
- Countries that were neutral can be attacked

You say the weather is making Barbarossa impossible - well that's realistic isn't it?

But seriously The poor weather that makes Barbarossa impossible can work both ways - and can hamper the Allies coming back. This game does not depend on one single piece of luck. The unpredicatability of this game is its beauty - it is infinitely replayable.

Give it more of a chance - if you can accept some liberties that make the game balanced, and one that is winnable by both sides, then you will I am sure, enjoy the wonderful mechanics that make this game what it is. Best. Game. Ever. I may have said that before


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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/31/2017 8:42:49 PM   
RickInVA

 

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I appreciate the frustration the weather can cause. I think it would be nice to have a "historical weather" option for those that want such.

To the question at hand though, as a further thought the weather listed does not have to persist for the entire period of the impulse to be impactfull. One day of snow can upset weeks of planning.

I did a bit of light research about the weather in Kiev as a rough representation of the southern end of the Arctic zone. Kiev has an average of 0.2 snowy days in May. So roughly once every 5 years there is a snowy day in May. That one day could severely impact planned operations, so I personally have no issue with the possibility being in the game. There can also be once in 100 year floods, once in 500 year earthquakes, any number of improbable events can potentially occur, and, like Warspite, I consider that an asset of the game. However, as stated I think an alternate, historical, weather could also be made available and would be a good addition to the game.

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/31/2017 10:03:34 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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One impulse should simulate one week and a half, not only one day, that's the point.

Dear Warspite: I'm playing meanwhile only the Barbarossa scenario, solo, to well learn the game that I've installed lees than a week ago, and I am enjoing a lot.

Cannot though honestly hide perplexity, meanwhile, regarding the feature we are talking about.

Consider furthermore, that this scenario ends in January-February 1942 only.

If you are going to meet one or two realistically, but not so much game mechanics wise, unprobable (to say the least) weather situations in the summer, as Germany you are pretty screwed out. No way to ever get close to Moscow, while a very hard and tough time and expectations to make it to Kiev or Leningrad (not to mention, again, that experiencing protracted snowy or blizzard weather in June - in Moscow as well not only Ukraina I think, but the Russian forumites here may provide a more sound opinion - , well, simply not true).

Edit: Cruisers ASW ships; I read that the unit is thought to simulate a squadron of DDs embedded with the ship, so in this optic it should well make sense.

< Message edited by adarbrauner -- 1/31/2017 10:07:01 PM >

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/31/2017 10:14:09 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Adding more weather zones would make the game more complex and add to players' difficulties in anticipating what the future holds.

As it is, players can usually depend on better weather in the southern climes during the northern hemisphere's summer. This really becomes a factor in China with offensive operations switching back and forth between northern and southern China depending the time of year.

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/31/2017 11:39:34 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

One impulse should simulate one week and a half, not only one day, that's the point.

Dear Warspite: I'm playing meanwhile only the Barbarossa scenario, solo, to well learn the game that I've installed lees than a week ago, and I am enjoing a lot.

Cannot though honestly hide perplexity, meanwhile, regarding the feature we are talking about.

Consider furthermore, that this scenario ends in January-February 1942 only.

If you are going to meet one or two realistically, but not so much game mechanics wise, unprobable (to say the least) weather situations in the summer, as Germany you are pretty screwed out. No way to ever get close to Moscow, while a very hard and tough time and expectations to make it to Kiev or Leningrad (not to mention, again, that experiencing protracted snowy or blizzard weather in June - in Moscow as well not only Ukraina I think, but the Russian forumites here may provide a more sound opinion - , well, simply not true).

Edit: Cruisers ASW ships; I read that the unit is thought to simulate a squadron of DDs embedded with the ship, so in this optic it should well make sense.

Turn on the ability to set die rolls, then do what you like. You can set it to anything FREX with research, your own approximation of what the weather should be per the historical record (except you can't change the weather zone boundaries). Or make your own weather table, roll on it and implement the result (except it has to be one of the ten allowed from the chart).

For playing with someone else, of course they'd have to agree to this modification.

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/31/2017 11:46:44 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RickInVA

I appreciate the frustration the weather can cause. I think it would be nice to have a "historical weather" option for those that want such.

To the question at hand though, as a further thought the weather listed does not have to persist for the entire period of the impulse to be impactfull. One day of snow can upset weeks of planning.

I did a bit of light research about the weather in Kiev as a rough representation of the southern end of the Arctic zone. Kiev has an average of 0.2 snowy days in May. So roughly once every 5 years there is a snowy day in May. That one day could severely impact planned operations, so I personally have no issue with the possibility being in the game. There can also be once in 100 year floods, once in 500 year earthquakes, any number of improbable events can potentially occur, and, like Warspite, I consider that an asset of the game. However, as stated I think an alternate, historical, weather could also be made available and would be a good addition to the game.


Would you like to press on a small research please regarding rain in Leningrad hinterland region let's say, at end of January-Beginning of February, during current glacial era, and send results?

I've just lost all of the Finnish army on the Ladoga which suddenly melt at that time.

I call it the "Leningrad Spring"



Also some 3-4 elite Luft korps sank in the soft, deep and lethal melted mud of the Pripjat, at the end of January. Exactly as today.

Just the tanks did not sink. they've been equipped with floating pontoons, just in case.

Meanwhile the crews are enjoying the sun between one rain squall and the other.

Anyone from the region tuned here to say hello and send us an update about temperature and ground consistency up there in last two weeks?





< Message edited by adarbrauner -- 1/31/2017 11:56:56 PM >

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 1/31/2017 11:48:06 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck



Turn on the ability to set die rolls, then do what you like. You can set it to anything FREX with research, your own approximation of what the weather should be per the historical record (except you can't change the weather zone boundaries). Or make your own weather table, roll on it and implement the result (except it has to be one of the ten allowed from the chart).

For playing with someone else, of course they'd have to agree to this modification.



Noticed your suggestion only now....

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 2/1/2017 7:25:00 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I live in a place that is considered in the "arctic zone". Normally the golf courses here are open from mid-March to late-October. But... in my lifetime, it has snowed here in every month of the year, July and August included.



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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 2/1/2017 7:29:36 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1



- Countries that were neutral can be attacked





Poland, Holland, Belgium, USA, ..., and many others. Even USSR, I believe.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/1/2017 7:30:18 AM >

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 2/1/2017 7:42:25 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

One impulse should simulate one week and a half, not only one day, that's the point.



To be true, an impulse is two months.

And if you have 0.2 snow days in May, snow days don't usually come isolated, so maybe you have 3 or 4 days of snow at the beginning of May (close to April), and few more in the rest of the month (0.2*30 = 6 snow days).

As you probably know in very cold/cold weather, snow doesn't simply dissapears but stays, and it could have had a serious impact in transport and fighting as far as it is on the ground.

And let's remember that snow is not a big penalty in WIF, neither for movement nor fight or supply range, being rain, storm and of course blizzard in most aspects equal or worse to snow. Blizzard would be another matter, especially in May in Kiev, but that's not happening in the game, I think.

And a 1 day per 5 snow it's just an average, it means, may be one year you get 2 or 3 per 5 and another 0 per 5 or 0 per 30.

The game is assigning a probability so low that it may perfectly refer to that year in 50 which had 3 snow days per week, which would mean snow and ice in the roads all the month.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/1/2017 8:01:26 AM >

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 27
RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 2/1/2017 7:55:36 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 1723
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

quote:

ORIGINAL: RickInVA

I appreciate the frustration the weather can cause. I think it would be nice to have a "historical weather" option for those that want such.

To the question at hand though, as a further thought the weather listed does not have to persist for the entire period of the impulse to be impactfull. One day of snow can upset weeks of planning.

I did a bit of light research about the weather in Kiev as a rough representation of the southern end of the Arctic zone. Kiev has an average of 0.2 snowy days in May. So roughly once every 5 years there is a snowy day in May. That one day could severely impact planned operations, so I personally have no issue with the possibility being in the game. There can also be once in 100 year floods, once in 500 year earthquakes, any number of improbable events can potentially occur, and, like Warspite, I consider that an asset of the game. However, as stated I think an alternate, historical, weather could also be made available and would be a good addition to the game.


Would you like to press on a small research please regarding rain in Leningrad hinterland region let's say, at end of January-Beginning of February, during current glacial era, and send results?

I've just lost all of the Finnish army on the Ladoga which suddenly melt at that time.

I call it the "Leningrad Spring"



Also some 3-4 elite Luft korps sank in the soft, deep and lethal melted mud of the Pripjat, at the end of January. Exactly as today.

Just the tanks did not sink. they've been equipped with floating pontoons, just in case.

Meanwhile the crews are enjoying the sun between one rain squall and the other.

Anyone from the region tuned here to say hello and send us an update about temperature and ground consistency up there in last two weeks?






I was lucky to find easily an actual news of lake ladoga melting in 2000 (which makes me think some research would get more results), killing 8 people and isolating 1.000 more who happened to be fishing. In late February. And they were not crossing it from side to side, loaded with weapons and all the stuff, and carrying (or carried by) trucks, artillery et al.

Yo can download the article (in spanish) here. With photos.

http://hemeroteca.lavanguardia.com/search.html?aux=Ladoga&fromISO=true&q=Ladoga&bd=29&bm=02&by=2000&ed=29&em=02&ey=2000


< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/1/2017 7:58:50 AM >

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Post #: 28
RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 2/1/2017 11:21:23 AM   
adarbrauner

 

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_of_Life

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RE: Snow in Central Europe in June - 2/1/2017 3:13:01 PM   
Centuur


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I understand his problems and frustrations with this. Think about it: it's all about knowing the rules and it's consequences. If one doesn't know the rules and suddenly the ice breaks, there goes your unit blub blub.

Things are about knowing when not to go on the ice and when to go on it. Same with landing aircraft in swamps. Experienced players will not risk units on ice or land aircraft in frozen swamps, except when making a necessary attack (on Leningrad f.e.). We've been there and done that...

The weather forecasts of WW II weren't exactly reliable too (especially for the Euroaxis, who lacked information out of the Atlantic ocean). The forecasters needed information from ships on sea and calculations were often reliable for one or two days at the most. Rommel wrote something about this in june 1944, just before D-Day. He wrote: "A storm, which wasn't predicted by the meteo, ruined my roses at the chateau today"...

Generals around the world had to gamble, where weather conditions were concerned. Will the good weather hold during my offensive, or will rain start to fall down? Will there be fog over Arnhem, so the Para's can't be reinforce and supplied and the airforce can't fly or will the sun shine? Weather was one of the most difficult things to predict in WW II. During WW II all warring countries spend a tremendous amount of money in trying to improve weather forecasts.

Weather can make and break a major offensive. Iced lakes are dangerous. And Lake Ladoga is really treacherous. It can remain frozen until april, but it can also melt in a day if rain sets in with temperatures of 4 Celsius in february. Especially the effect of wind (and it doesn't need to be a storm) on melting ice is devastating. And there's always wind on Lake Ladoga. The Soviets got lucky in 1942 with the ice conditions and the game has to reflect this luck.

The Barbarossa scenario is a learning scenario. If the Germans get good weather, they might succeed. If the weather turns on them, they fail. That's the downside of playing this scenario. However, in a global war game, the weather tends to even out IMHO and makes sure that things are not predictable.
And yes, it sometimes gets really frustrating. Mr. Hitler had to postpone the attack on France and the Low Countries 4 times, due to bad weather....

< Message edited by Centuur -- 2/1/2017 3:15:32 PM >


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