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hotfix .02 problem - 1/2/2017 9:07:56 AM   
sillyflower


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Losses screens don't reset after being reviewed at start of turn. Problem persists and even saving + reloading (server) game doesn't help. NB my opponent Manstein63 only updated after sending his turn.

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RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/3/2017 4:20:31 PM   
sillyflower


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Still doing it in my game v BrianG where we are both on .02

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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Post #: 2
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/3/2017 4:50:58 PM   
morvael


Posts: 10675
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From: Poland
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Losses are supposed to not reset now, except at start of logistics phase. You see changes since you last pressed End Turn.

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Post #: 3
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/3/2017 8:06:41 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 2427
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Loches France (but properly part of England)
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Tx Morvael. I should not have doubted your WAD-ness

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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Post #: 4
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/3/2017 8:21:22 PM   
morvael


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This method allows to see total losses of your and enemy forces during last enemy turn (including his logistics phase) and your current turn (including your logistics phase), without having to resort to subtracting last turn total losses from this turn total losses. IMHO it's more useful data for comparing relative losses than a manually resetting (at the moment of your choice) counter. But I need feedback, how do you like it? Of course for this feature to work, both players must be on .02.

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Post #: 5
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/4/2017 6:23:51 AM   
sillyflower


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From: Loches France (but properly part of England)
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The ability to see the full casualty list for a whole turn cycle is excellent. The current problem is that the screenshot below is of losses from start of G turn 80 to almost end G turn 81.No G transports have been lost in the current turn. Same goes for ground losses.




Attachment (1)

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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Post #: 6
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/4/2017 7:14:50 AM   
morvael


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Unfortunately this is also WAD, because there was no "space" left in the existing structures to keep this data (to show this properly to both players I have to keep half-turn results in separate variables). So I keep only the totals on the right, but not the details on the left. This was mentioned in the changelog. I'll ask Pavel if I can expand data structures at will.

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Post #: 7
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/4/2017 8:58:54 AM   
menemene

 

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Hello moravel & co,

first of all i thank you for the great work done to improve this nice game. To be honest i play this game since the beginning and i have noticed a constant improvement over the years.

Now to the troubling part :
In my humble opinion the way the casualty screen works now is totally broken.
I'll try to explain my point of view, as a german player , maybe from the russian side it looks different.

First of all , let's have a look at how it should be in the ideal case:
1. i want to be able to see the total casualty numbers caused during my active turn - this action need to be performed many times during my turn
2. i want to be able to see the total casualty numbers at the end of my opponent active turn - only one time
3. i want to see the total attrition casualty numbers - also only one time
This numbers need to be added to a grand total number and reset to zero at the beginning of each of my new turn.

Let's see now how it was before the great .02 change:
1. i could see the casualties caused in my active turn any time i want - fully ok
2. and 3, were mixed together but with some excel sheets was possible to get the actual numbers - not ok but manageable

Now I can see you wanted to repair 2. and 3. but why break 1. ?
Why I say this ? Because it's a real pain for me each time I want to see how i'm doing during my active turn (which to be honest is the funny part of the game) to have to deduct such numbers like 23764 current turn casualties - 18779 current turn casualties at the beginning of the current turn just to find out that i have caused about 5000 casualties with my moving of the counters.
More than this , you have for example 27 fighter planes lost in the current turn but on the left side is only 1 Bf lost , and so on ...
I think this is very confusing for many players.

I understand that you may have restrictions in the number or size of the variables that you can use.
What I may wish for myself is :
1. the way casualties were handled during my active turn should be reversed - was not broken
2. when i get the turn from my opponent i want to be able to see the casualties caused by his active actions and separately the casualties caused by attrition - i think this could be done with the existing variables structure for example one set of numbers stored on the recent battle casualties and the other one on the current turn casualties.
This numbers need to be added to a grand total number and reset to zero at the beginning of each of my new turn. - like it was before.
One "reset current turn counters" button could be used for this (better solution) or as it was before reset the counters when leaving the casualties screen.

Since casualty calculations are in my opinion a very big part of this game, I really hope that you consider to repair this function.

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Post #: 8
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/4/2017 10:28:22 AM   
morvael


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Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
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I believe there is no one size fits all solution here, as some will prefer the old method. I guess ideally would be allowing to choose what you want to see.

The old method's weakest point was the fact that the stats reset after leaving the losses screen for the first time, so if you made some attacks first they were then missing from the stats for the rest of the turn. It was absolutely not a consistent experience. So this had to go.

For me the numbers only from my turn didn't make sense, because they didn't show the exchange ratio (crucial to know if you're above or below the desired ratio in terms of men & materiel), the Germans could have reduced pocket that cost me 100K, yet on my "current turn" stats that would never show up. During my PBEMs I never looked at current turn losses, but painfully copied total losses to excel to substract previous turn total losses to get my "one turn" losses and find what the exchange ratio was.

If I could fit 4 sets of data into the structures available it would be possible to make a dynamic solution - record losses from both logistics phases and both turns separately and add a button to display all combinations of these that make sense. Unless I know I can get more space I'm afraid the current solution is the only one that will remain, offering consistent experience for both players, regardless of when they enter the losses screen. I could try to dump this data into logistics phase log, but again - it's restricted in size and I have already pushed it to the limit.

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Post #: 9
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/4/2017 10:56:00 AM   
sillyflower


Posts: 2427
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From: Loches France (but properly part of England)
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I largely agree with menemene. I need 2 numbers:
1 Turn losses ie from start of my previous turn to start of next.
2 Running loss total in my turn.

I don't find it difficult to look at losses screen at start of turn. If I get over-excited and do an attack or so first, I can just get the numbers from those combats and mentally add them to current turn loss figure. However, working out total turn losses at the moment is too much effort to be worth trying as one has to figure out disabled returns and HIWI effect. My ideal is therefore to have total turn losses as start at turn, take a screenshot if want to keep the data and then those numbers wipe to 0.

If you need to reduce logistics log data, only 1 set of data per turn would much more useful. I don't get any value from the replacement/build data being split into phases.

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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Post #: 10
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/4/2017 11:19:20 AM   
menemene

 

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I agree that it will be hard to make everybody happy with one solution.
At least a "clear current turn counters" button could give everybody the possibility to reset the current stats whenever he wants.

I also think that the hardcore players are always copying the casualties at the end of the active turn and at the beginning of the new turn because that's the only way to see the exchange ratio and how it evolves over time.

But now with the new method i'm loosing information without getting anything in return.
What is the use of telling me middle in my active turn that I have lost 27543 soldiers and 537 cannons and 235 Pz if i can not tell is it because of my actions or maybe 76.5% of people and 45.5% of the Tanks it's just the attrition from the previous turn ?
Since I don't log every single piece of equipment , information gets lost as soon as my new turn losses are mixing with the old losses from attrition and enemy's turn.

Now each time i want to see how i'm doing inside my active turn i must painfully copy the numbers into excel.
How can this improve my game experience ?
Telling that you personally never look at the current turn losses is not a real argument here.

I guess we need a way to clearly see the results of the active actions in ones turn. If you are interested in ratios why not calculate and put them into the log file at the end of each turn ?
As it is now I am happy to see the numbers during opponents turn + attrition but it's bad if this numbers are mixing with my current turn. The opponent turn was visible also before and the attrition was easy to calculate.

The old method could be improved , but for me the new method is not good.

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Post #: 11
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/4/2017 2:02:37 PM   
Stelteck

 

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I do not know what is the best method, but remember that 20% of the time with V1.09.01, german looses are displayed for the soviet player as ZERO due to an unidentified issue, even when it is the first opening of the loss screen.
(No problem for soviet looses).


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Post #: 12
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/4/2017 2:39:35 PM   
Manstein63


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New features
1. Changed the way current turn losses are calculated and displayed. No longer they are reset after the first visit to the losses screen. Current turn losses (for both players) are now automatically reset at the start of each logistics phase. However, previous values of current turn losses are recorded just before that reset, and are added to the current values in the appropriate column on the losses screen. This means that for every player current turn losses show losses incurred since the start of the enemy player’s logistics phase. Unfortunately, due to data constraints current turn losses for individual ground elements and aircraft include only the losses since the start of last logistics phase. This information may not be accurate during the first two player turns for ongoing games.

Firstly let me congratulate & thank Morvael for all his hard work in improving this game.

As you can see from the above if you have a current game going on the information on losses may not be completly accurate, I would give it a couple of turns to settle. I personally think that it is better than previous versions, however that being said I just play the game and I really can't be bothered knowing exactly how many men I have lost on a given turn. It's also why after six or so years of playing this game I have still to actually read the rulebook.
Providing that when I open my turn I have a coherent front line, with no massive disasters happening or looming I will be perfectly happy.

Manstein63

< Message edited by Manstein63 -- 1/4/2017 2:53:16 PM >


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Post #: 13
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/4/2017 10:00:19 PM   
morvael


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From: Poland
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I have found a way to store more data and it will be possible to see "current turn" losses in different ways.

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Post #: 14
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/5/2017 1:19:34 AM   
Tejszd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

I have found a way to store more data and it will be possible to see "current turn" losses in different ways.


Awesome news morvael!!!

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Post #: 15
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/5/2017 1:49:58 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63


Firstly let me congratulate & thank Morvael for all his hard work in improving this game.

Manstein63


Kissing a guy can be construed in weird ways Manstein63!!! hehehe (not to mention the kissed avatar gets a BIG smile)


But yes, thank you Morvael for continuation dedication to this game :)

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Post #: 16
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/5/2017 11:31:13 AM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63


Firstly let me congratulate & thank Morvael for all his hard work in improving this game.

Manstein63


Kissing a guy can be construed in weird ways Manstein63!!!


And Manstein has a lovely wife too.............................

@Morvael - grats


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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 17
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/5/2017 12:11:32 PM   
Manstein63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

And Manstein has a lovely wife too.............................



Yes I am truly blessed among men. After all it was Wifey that bought this game for me back in Christmas 2010 & who sits uncomplaining (especially since I bought her an Ipad Pro) while I stare at a computer screen.

Manstein63



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'There is not, nor aught there be, nothing so exalted on the face of god's great earth, as that prince of foods. THE MUFFIN!!!'

Frank Zappa (Muffin Man)

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Post #: 18
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/5/2017 12:17:49 PM   
Manstein63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Kissing a guy can be construed in weird ways Manstein



If you pardon the expression 'my tongue was firmly in cheek' which was why I only used the one smiley.
Manstein63

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'There is not, nor aught there be, nothing so exalted on the face of god's great earth, as that prince of foods. THE MUFFIN!!!'

Frank Zappa (Muffin Man)

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 19
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/5/2017 12:22:38 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 1090
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Kissing a guy can be construed in weird ways Manstein



If you pardon the expression 'my tongue was firmly in cheek' which was why I only used the one smiley.
Manstein63


hehehehehehehehehehe now that is funny :-}

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Post #: 20
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/5/2017 12:33:47 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 2427
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From: Loches France (but properly part of England)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63


If you pardon the expression 'my tongue was firmly in cheek' which was why I only used the one smiley.
Manstein63


Yes: but in whose cheek? We have a right to know


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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to Manstein63)
Post #: 21
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/5/2017 12:38:41 PM   
morvael


Posts: 10675
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: online
Native speakers having fun, while the rest scratches their head

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Post #: 22
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/5/2017 12:54:56 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63


If you pardon the expression 'my tongue was firmly in cheek' which was why I only used the one smiley.
Manstein63


Yes: but in whose cheek? We have a right to know



Hohohoho, Sillyflower brings out an "outstanding" point here!

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Post #: 23
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/5/2017 12:59:00 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 2427
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From: Loches France (but properly part of England)
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deleted

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 1/5/2017 1:04:45 PM >


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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 24
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/5/2017 1:04:18 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 2427
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Loches France (but properly part of England)
Status: offline
The words 'tongue in cheek' can mean 2 things

1 Saying something 'tongue in cheek' means it is a joke. This is the normal meaning
2 The literal meaning of putting a tongue in a cheek - also known as a French kiss, but I don't know what the French call it.

The joke here is that we are deliberately mixing the 2 meanings. if you do not think it is a funny joke, it means that you do not have the sense of humour of an 8 year old boy.

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 25
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/5/2017 1:11:35 PM   
morvael


Posts: 10675
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: online
Let's not continue this. We may end up with tongue in chick...

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Post #: 26
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/5/2017 1:13:13 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 679
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From: Berlin, Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Native speakers having fun, while the rest scratches their head

+ 1 morvael
I am neither a native speaker nor do I have the humour of a 8 years boy (more like 9 years ) so I should stop trying to understand all this...

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 27
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/5/2017 1:14:47 PM   
morvael


Posts: 10675
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
+ 1 morvael
I am neither a native speaker nor do I have the humour of a 8 years boy (more like 9 years ) so I should stop trying to understand all this...


Then I have disappointed you with my previous post, for which I am sorry

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Post #: 28
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/5/2017 1:33:25 PM   
Manstein63


Posts: 645
Joined: 6/30/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

The joke here is that we are deliberately mixing the 2 meanings. if you do not think it is a funny joke, it means that you do not have the sense of humour of an 8 year old boy.


My wife has always said that I have the sense of humour of a small child, at least it's now official.
Manstein63

_____________________________

'There is not, nor aught there be, nothing so exalted on the face of god's great earth, as that prince of foods. THE MUFFIN!!!'

Frank Zappa (Muffin Man)

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 29
RE: hotfix .02 problem - 1/5/2017 1:53:49 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 1090
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
+ 1 morvael
I am neither a native speaker nor do I have the humour of a 8 years boy (more like 9 years ) so I should stop trying to understand all this...


Then I have disappointed you with my previous post, for which I am sorry


Maybe this should have been patched in 1.09.02 too ;-P

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Post #: 30
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