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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/20/2017 3:12:06 PM   
cpdeyoung


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But, but their uniforms are so green.

(in reply to ironduke1955)
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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/21/2017 6:12:25 AM   
lordlau1

 

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Hey Ironduke, are you staying in the game?

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/21/2017 9:12:56 AM   
ironduke1955


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As far as I can tell game 28 is a play test of the weather conditions we have tested the MOD and come back with the following findings.

1) Engineer problem needs to be addressed so they are not effected by weather mud or snow.

2) The exemption to the Soviets taking a Readiness hit in Mud or Snow has no basis in historical fact, Hitlers decision to not provide winter clothing and basic winter preparedness measures, was the reason for the success of the Soviet 41/42 winter offensive that and Hitlers strategic mishandling of the offensive delaying the attack on Moscow for a unnecessary southward attack to assist Army Group South that turned out not to be needed.

3)If we are modelling mistakes made by historical leaders then there should be a requirement for a no retreat option for the Soviets and a requirement that they launch a required number of attacks on the Germans during the first four to five months of a invasion of the Soviet Union.

4) The effects during the winter also applying to Naval and Air units giving the Soviets at sea and in the air a superiority for the entire game over powers Like the US UK and Japan all over the globe where weather effects apply are a game breaker.

5) There are Soviet armies in the Balkans at the moment benefiting from a weather exemption that is just supposed to apply to the Russian front.

So we have play tested these changes and the results are back time to start a proper game, with the above problems that now exist with the MOD rectified as the MOD is currently unplayable. Count me in for a restart.

< Message edited by ironduke1955 -- 1/21/2017 9:17:56 AM >

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/21/2017 5:49:34 PM   
cpdeyoung


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Some thoughts for Ernie, and all players, to consider.

The Russian people are familiar with weather that is beyond Western European experience. This can be reflected in the game.

1. Let's introduce a card for "Winter warfare preparations" which will be free for the USSR, but will cost everyone else PP.
2. The Soviets should get a small bonus for winter land combat due to the greater experience with Russian winters. If this can be restricted to snow and mud that seems to work.
3. If a small penalty for mud and snow can be applied to engineers that might work. Pioneer work was made much more difficult in these weather conditions. Even 10% extra EP for engineering tasks would work I think.

Many players of games on this scale hate weather rules, while others see a need to differentiate "good campaigning weather" from sub-optimal. Perhaps weather could be optional.

All discussion should be informed by Ernie and Bombur, who know what can and cannot be done.

I am willing to continue Game 28 with players who know the flaws Tom mentions. It would be interesting to see how much they affect the game by actually playing more.

Chuck

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/21/2017 7:57:43 PM   
nedfn1

 

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I would like to understand more about the winter modifications for units. It seems to me that we are talking about building in too much complexity to deal with the early history of the war. I do not think we should be modeling WWII with all of the mistakes that were made. Therefore, the weather should affect all units and all nationalities equally. Everyone learns to deal with the weather. It was my understanding that the weather affected readiness of all units. This seems to be fairly reasonable and simple. If readiness also reduces the EP that engineers build up then readiness is the only variable needed for bad weather operations.

I will go with the majority rule on continuing this game. I support Ironduke in that we were testing the first weather rules. I would prefer to restart with the same players. Having said that, the timing of Ironduke's unilateral decision to leave the game appears to be in response to recent successes of GB and Russia. Perhaps we should all play a few more turns to see if Germany can recover and to more fully explore the winter effects. If we played another 4-5 turns to get through the first winter it would fully test the Winter rules.

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/21/2017 8:14:11 PM   
ironduke1955


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No need to consider.

The Chinese people the American people in fact all nationalities are familiar with local weather in their native countries, does this mean that they should all receive a bonus for fighting on home soil. Reality Mud and Snow are pretty much the same in any country and details of weather patterns in foreign countries are common knowledge, only a fool like Hitler would not make provision for something that is common knowledge.

Game 28 gives massive advantages to the Soviet Union none of them either historic or factual, Mud sticks to the Soviets boots and they freeze to death just like other nationalities and accounts of the Finnish War and accounts of the Russian front will confirm this, they lost more men to the Cold than the Germans but that is not considered, the myth is that only the Germans were effected, very much like the 1812 campaign the Russians lost some four hundred thousand men to the cold marginally more than the French and their allies.

Players like a level playing field game 28 has been skewed in favour of the Soviet Union. I would happy to play the Soviets on the restart to prove that the Soviets can do well without altering the balance of the mod.

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/21/2017 8:35:44 PM   
ironduke1955


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The Germans have not engaged anyone but the French so far and have performed as well as they normally do. In so much as France was captured. Pretty good going for 1938.

Its the Italians who are not faring well but then they never do and to be honest they are doing better than on previous occasions when I have had control of them, the context of Turkey was that it should have gone to the Soviets but was stolen by the Italians on a coup, no chance of holding Turkey but the up side was is that the Soviets and as it turns out the British had to destroy a army that should have been under Soviet control.

But they are likely to be fighting Soviets in the Balkans in 1939, the Germans will suffer a 15% reduction to readiness for urban areas and 35% reduction on clear snow clear areas, the Soviets will be at 100% readiness but they will be .8 against 1.0
national abilities the Germans have not yet used the tech militarism that would give them a 15% percent additional bonus. The Soviets may not be at .8 but only the Soviet player would know this.

And the trouble with these reductions to German effectiveness they are happening in the Balkans as far as I understand these changes they are meant to reflect conditions in the Soviet Union and only in the Soviet Union.

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/21/2017 9:00:09 PM   
cpdeyoung


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Many game designers have built "General Winter" into their game.

Gary Grigsby's "War in the East" is a good example, where winter plays a very large role. "Time of Fury" is another.

The brand new "Strategic Command WW2 in Europe" also has provision for a very consequential winter.

So I think it is really rather common, and should be considered.

Chuck

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/21/2017 9:10:43 PM   
ironduke1955


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I have War in the East so that is a poor example WITE reduces German Mobility, A German Panzer Division can have 50 Movement Points/Action Points on June 22 1941 Barbarossa, in the winter that can be a fraction of that down to 25% of its maximum with other factors like supply interdiction etc taken into account. But that is it a reduction in movement rates that could be achieved with the use of weather only without a punitive reduction to readiness for all other nations air sea and land across the globe.

< Message edited by ironduke1955 -- 1/21/2017 9:25:17 PM >

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/21/2017 9:18:51 PM   
cpdeyoung


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I have "War in the East" too. I stand by my statement that it "plays a very large role". Your milage may vary.

I am sure Ernie will explore suitable mechanisms, and I would like to hear, form him, what is possible.

Chuck

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/21/2017 9:36:56 PM   
ironduke1955


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So you agree that a reduction in mobility is what is required and we have that already with the introduction of Mud and Snow, so the reductions to readiness can be removed from all other major power during winter months. Sounds fine by me can't wait for the restart.

But lets not forget Engineers need to work the year around, not just in 7 months of the year.

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/21/2017 9:43:48 PM   
nedfn1

 

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What is wrong with a simple readiness reduction for all units in severe weather conditions? Does not readiness affect AP?

We have 2 votes to restart and 2 votes to continue. One vote remaining to make a decision.


< Message edited by nedfn1 -- 1/21/2017 9:52:42 PM >

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/21/2017 9:57:42 PM   
ironduke1955


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You could I guess the weather reduction in mud halves movement rates already, a 15% reduction in readiness would give a reduction to AP in fractions, point is readiness is about logistics supply deficiencies organisational problems suffered by combat, if you already have the movement reductions due to Mud or Snow, and then you add more reductions to readiness for mud and snow you are doubling down.

Just to clarify ATG changes the AP cost of entering a hex during Mud and Snow months.

< Message edited by ironduke1955 -- 1/21/2017 9:58:24 PM >

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/21/2017 10:09:21 PM   
Bombur

 

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I must talk to ernie, from my POV what we need to do is to give the Soviets a decrease of readiness in the Winter, althought smaller than other nations. From what I know, Soviet equipment as a whole is better designed for the winter months, the T-34 for instance, had larger tracks that gave it more mobility. Of course, I think we could find more information on the effect of weather in the East Front. However, in my opinion, we shouldn´t make adjustments in this game until we have more extensive playtest. So, if Iron Duke wants to quit, I´m ready to take his place, so I could draw my own conclusions.

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/21/2017 10:15:52 PM   
nedfn1

 

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This sounds like the best option to me. Let's play through the first Winter. Ironduke should continue to play the German.
Not good to quit a game.

< Message edited by nedfn1 -- 1/21/2017 10:18:02 PM >

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/21/2017 10:20:32 PM   
Bombur

 

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I will study this text to see if I get any ideas. If Iron Duke wants to remain playing it is much better


http://www.allworldwars.com/Effects-of-Climate-on-Combat-in-European-Russia.html

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/21/2017 10:35:31 PM   
Bombur

 

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https://www.quora.com/Why-didnt-the-Russian-Winter-impact-the-Soviet-Union-the-same-way-it-affected-Nazi-Germany

Also some ideas here

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/22/2017 1:36:17 AM   
ArmouredLion

 

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Considering the time Bombur puts into this mod, it would seem that helping him play test this aspect is the least we can do. If some need an * next to any wins and loses, it's understandable. Let's do at least one winter, so future games can reap the benefit. I'm fine with a reboot after that...let's consider this a play test.

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/22/2017 2:01:51 AM   
nedfn1

 

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Well said. I agree. How about Ironduke?

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/22/2017 6:40:10 AM   
ironduke1955


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Bomber has the password. I wish him luck.

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/22/2017 8:05:44 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

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I am having trouble discerning what you want exactly. I'll try to write up what everybody wants, but it won't be right now.

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/22/2017 9:59:35 AM   
ironduke1955


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Fairly straight forward.

1) Like the weather it tips the game towards the Soviets slightly in that it reduces German mobility, but that is how it was.

2) No hits to readiness armies adapt and a blanket reduction in readiness is just a assumption about how leaders deal with problems. Some brush them of others act quickly to rectify them. The Germans with the right leader could have been better prepared for the winter of 41/42 better in fact than the Soviets. Unless you have a tech winter warfare that powers have to spend some PP on to avoid winter penalties. It puts a production cost on training clothing and things like wider tracks on tanks.

3) Engineers need to work all the year round allowing builds like factories airports etc in winter months that's mud and snow.



< Message edited by ironduke1955 -- 1/22/2017 10:10:28 AM >

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/22/2017 11:31:46 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

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So basically it comes down to this:
- No hits to readiness
- No effects on building

I thought we agreed that a change that has no effect, is no change at all. This would mean that the weather would basically just be graphical.

< Message edited by ernieschwitz -- 1/22/2017 11:42:13 AM >

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/22/2017 11:40:31 AM   
Bombur

 

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However, winter actually decreases readiness, even if you give this penalty to every nation. My suggestion is to give the Soviets half the readiness penalty and to allow engineers to build things in mud/snow.

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/22/2017 11:43:05 AM   
Bombur

 

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Could you send me the invitation for the dropbox folder?

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/22/2017 11:51:18 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

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... Also an effect that I rather like, the need for using extra supplies in winter, would be lost if there were no readiness loss.

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/22/2017 12:45:14 PM   
ArmouredLion

 

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My take is this: the winter of 41 was terrible, extra terrible, that should be 'hard coded' because it's just part of the history as that year offers a benefit to the Russian beyond tactics and strategy of individual leader who might have done this or that as it was unexpected and a certain eventuality. So, even if the Germans had prepared they would have suffered. Not as much if they hadn't chosen to invade in shorts and a tee shirt, but they would have suffered..just as the Russian would have been prepared due their understanding of Mother Russia. So, readiness should be an issue, but not so extensive. Is it possible to increase supply use and if that supply use is restricted then larger readiness penalties are incurred? Add to that the winter tech that the Germans can only increase to it's highest level after 41-42 winter -- even though tiger running gears froze in 43 -- to represent the experience needed to develop the tech.This would cover a smart German leadership as well as the Russian experience that at any case would have been superior to the Germans even if they had prepared for Barbarossa. It would also give the Russians the reprieve needed after the Blitz to not be consumed in 41-42. Also, AP cost in movement if it's not already implemented would do the trick and if Soviets already posses that tech in 41-42 they'd have a further advantage in offense that wouldn't penalize the Germans defense--ski units swamped retreating Germans fleeing the Moscow battle grounds for example. Anyway, just my two cent -- new to this mod, so you might as well take it as 1 1/2 cents worth of thoughts.

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/22/2017 1:21:16 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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quote:

Is it possible to increase supply use and if that supply use is restricted then larger readiness penalties are incurred?


Supply usage is increased because units try to get to 100 readiness, and they do that by burning supplies. There is no way to increase usage (that is practical) which could be used. Among the impractical ways of increasing supply usage would be to run through ALL the SFTs (all some 400+) and adding a slight increase in usage. Of course such a solution would have to programmed very specifically, as there is no way to "read" how many supplies a SFT uses. So one would have to make a table for this. This table would of course need to be remade every time new SFTs are introduced... In other words a pretty big job for something that could be done much more easily by giving a readiness hit.

Regarding the 41 winter. It wouldn't be much of a surprise to the Germans if they knew it was coming, would it? They would be prepared, and perhaps retreat some, slowly to avoid to costly losses. Of course one could make a card, that the Soviets could play, like cpdyoung is suggesting, but making the Soviets the master of weather (on a global scale) would be somewhat magical. The you might argue (like Tom) that local weather effects should not affect troops in local areas. (Ok that is 8 different types of snow, and mud for each kind of Landcape type ie. forests, swamps, etc.) which would be impractical too. You could argue (within reason) that snow in the Soviet Union would be different, and thus only 1 different type of Snow would be needed (along with 1 snow pr. landscape type)... Still that is alot of work, but not undoable. But if we are at the same time suggesting that no readiness hit should occur at all (which Tom is a proponent of) then it would all be for naught.

But yes, I was thinking I could make various levels of preparedness for snow... But... as Tom points out, only a madman like hitler would not be aware of the Soviet winter. Just like only a madman would reduce the Soviet officer corps to its deplorable state it is in, or for that matter the competancy of its forces.

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/22/2017 1:41:15 PM   
ArmouredLion

 

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I'm not knowledgeable on the game mechanics, but a card sounds good. Also, "hitler would not be aware of the Soviet winter" I think it was more of if they don't win the war in 10 weeks they will lose the war anyway and this was 'supposed to be' a motivator for victory or punisher for their failure. It was mad to not send winter gear for whatever reason, but I'm of the mind that he attacked as he did because Russia was about to launch it's own preemptive attack. Germany was beginning to lose the war not matter what by Oct. snow was just an extra hindrance and suffering on the troops. Also, it wasn't the coldest winter ever, but was colder much colder than usual. So, even if they prepared they would have not been 'totally protected' as it intensity and the fine nuances of operating in the climate would have been a new experience where for Russia it was old hat. So, card or not, Germany should have some penalty for that first winter -- even if it is slight.

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RE: GD1938 Game 28 - 1/22/2017 1:43:19 PM   
lordlau1

 

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I'll comment later on everyone else's comments above. It's hard on my phone. I'll be done traveling today. I'm fine to play on.

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