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Bombers from Portland and escorts from PM didnīt work

 
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Bombers from Portland and escorts from PM didnīt work - 12/9/2016 6:53:07 AM   
Odin


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From: Germany, Wanne-Eickel
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Hello guys,

yesterday in my fungame i wanted to bomb Rabaul port with B-17F from Portland Roads, escorted with my P-39G from Port Moresby.

That didnīt work...i set both the bombers and the P-38 at 15.000 but they fly everytime without a single escort.

These fools were sitting on the ground at PM and watched the bombers passing by overhead!

Both airbases were build up, best commanders in squadrons, enough supplies everywhere..no idea what iam doing wrong!

Ideas? I know thats a newbe question of course but i canīt figure out whats wrong.

Thanks.

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RE: Bombers from Portland and escorts from PM didnīt work - 12/9/2016 7:05:14 AM   
paradigmblue

 

Posts: 698
Joined: 9/16/2014
From: Fairbanks, Alaska
Status: online
If you want your fighters to provide cover for your bombers but have to have them flying from different bases, have your fighters LRCAP the hex that you are planning on bombing instead.

If you want reliable fighter escorts, have the bombers and fighters fly from the same base.

(in reply to Odin)
Post #: 2
RE: Bombers from Portland and escorts from PM didnīt work - 12/9/2016 11:52:00 AM   
dave sindel

 

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From: Millersburg, OH
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paradigmblue

If you want your fighters to provide cover for your bombers but have to have them flying from different bases, have your fighters LRCAP the hex that you are planning on bombing instead.

If you want reliable fighter escorts, have the bombers and fighters fly from the same base.


I have found this method described by paradigmblue to be much more reliable. I've had bombers hitting Port Moresby from several different bases, and fighters on LRCAP over Port Moresby from other bases are always present. It's been effective enough that my opponent hasnt put CAP over Port Moresby for a while...

(in reply to paradigmblue)
Post #: 3
RE: Bombers from Portland and escorts from PM didnīt work - 12/9/2016 12:07:51 PM   
Odin


Posts: 1163
Joined: 1/3/2001
From: Germany, Wanne-Eickel
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Ok thank you guys, will try this later.



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RE: Bombers from Portland and escorts from PM didnīt work - 12/9/2016 12:11:10 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 2904
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poznan, Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Odin

Hello guys,

yesterday in my fungame i wanted to bomb Rabaul port with B-17F from Portland Roads, escorted with my P-39G from Port Moresby.

That didnīt work...i set both the bombers and the P-38 at 15.000 but they fly everytime without a single escort.

These fools were sitting on the ground at PM and watched the bombers passing by overhead!

Both airbases were build up, best commanders in squadrons, enough supplies everywhere..no idea what iam doing wrong!

Ideas? I know thats a newbe question of course but i canīt figure out whats wrong.

Thanks.



Coordination effect

Theatre command - same -----------Helps

Air HQ same -----------Helps
If no air HQ present or HQs in different locations this can be negated by simply subordinating air groups directly to theatre command

Base – both groups at the same base -----------Helps

Base – both groups at different bases --------Lessens the chance

Escorts altitude and target same as bombers -----helps

Group experience - high --------------Helps
Can be influenced by dropping high exp pilots from other bombing squadrons

Leader AIR rating - high ------------Helps
Both for bomber and fighter unit

Cruise speed - similar (less then 20% difference) -----Helps

Cruise speed – different (more then 20% difference) -Lessens the chance

Morale - high ---------Helps
Both for bomber and fighter unit


< Message edited by Yaab -- 12/9/2016 12:12:02 PM >

(in reply to Odin)
Post #: 5
RE: Bombers from Portland and escorts from PM didnīt work - 12/9/2016 12:16:40 PM   
Odin


Posts: 1163
Joined: 1/3/2001
From: Germany, Wanne-Eickel
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

quote:

ORIGINAL: Odin

Hello guys,

yesterday in my fungame i wanted to bomb Rabaul port with B-17F from Portland Roads, escorted with my P-39G from Port Moresby.

That didnīt work...i set both the bombers and the P-38 at 15.000 but they fly everytime without a single escort.

These fools were sitting on the ground at PM and watched the bombers passing by overhead!

Both airbases were build up, best commanders in squadrons, enough supplies everywhere..no idea what iam doing wrong!

Ideas? I know thats a newbe question of course but i canīt figure out whats wrong.

Thanks.



Coordination effect

Theatre command - same -----------Helps

Air HQ same -----------Helps
If no air HQ present or HQs in different locations this can be negated by simply subordinating air groups directly to theatre command

Base – both groups at the same base -----------Helps

Base – both groups at different bases --------Lessens the chance

Escorts altitude and target same as bombers -----helps

Group experience - high --------------Helps
Can be influenced by dropping high exp pilots from other bombing squadrons

Leader AIR rating - high ------------Helps
Both for bomber and fighter unit

Cruise speed - similar (less then 20% difference) -----Helps

Cruise speed – different (more then 20% difference) -Lessens the chance

Morale - high ---------Helps
Both for bomber and fighter unit



Thanks for that.

I will check this, but i can say nearly every point is ok except the squadrons are under SWPAC-Command, as the bases are.

I have 5th air HQ in Portland Road, will it help when i assign them to it?

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RE: Bombers from Portland and escorts from PM didnīt work - 12/9/2016 12:23:53 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 2904
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poznan, Poland
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You B-17 F has the cruise speed of 200mph, while P-38F has 340 mph. There is no way they will ever fly together.

(in reply to Odin)
Post #: 7
RE: Bombers from Portland and escorts from PM didnīt work - 12/9/2016 12:30:17 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 2904
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poznan, Poland
Status: offline
Here is some old reference from the devs:

Air coordination

Here is a list of things that go towards determining if groups are 'grouped' together in the same raid/attack:
• Group attack mission is similar to the raid's mission (not a TF and a base attack)
• Sweeps, recon and search missions are not used in co-ordination
• Escorts need to be at same altitude as raid itself and have the same target to imporve chances
• Groups from same base have better chance to fly together; further apart group bases are, lessen the chance
• Groups belonging to same theatre command have increased chance; groups in range of their Air Hq are further increased
• IJA and IJN groups have a lessen chance to co-ordinate
• Group experience and leader's AIR increases chance
• Groups need to be within 20% of the raid's speed or time to target for the raid and group within 30 minutes to participate in raid
• Escorts targeted to same target as bombers have a better chance than un-target escorts

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 8
RE: Bombers from Portland and escorts from PM didnīt work - 12/9/2016 12:46:26 PM   
Odin


Posts: 1163
Joined: 1/3/2001
From: Germany, Wanne-Eickel
Status: offline
Hm, this 20% percent speed thing could mess this up...everything else is ok i think.



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Post #: 9
RE: Bombers from Portland and escorts from PM didnīt work - 12/9/2016 12:53:47 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 2904
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poznan, Poland
Status: offline
Try flying both groups from Port Moresby and see if P-38s will show up as the escort.

(in reply to Odin)
Post #: 10
RE: Bombers from Portland and escorts from PM didnīt work - 12/9/2016 5:06:34 PM   
GetAssista

 

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Joined: 9/19/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
You B-17 F has the cruise speed of 200mph, while P-38F has 340 mph. There is no way they will ever fly together.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
• Groups need to be within 20% of the raid's speed or time to target for the raid and group within 30 minutes to participate in raid

The second one does not sound like cruise speed comparison to me.
Also cruise speed should not be a strict "within 20% or bust" condition, more like a decreasing chance with increaseing speed difference. E.g. every JFB uses Oscars as escorts. They have 273+ mph cruise, above 120% of Helens' 217 mph. Yet, successful escorting happens pretty often

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 11
RE: Bombers from Portland and escorts from PM didnīt work - 12/9/2016 5:38:38 PM   
Yaab


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From: Poznan, Poland
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The quote speaks about the raid's speed. Who sets the speed - fighters or bombers?

Bombers have mission and destination, while fighters are given Escort mission and the same altitude. So let's say it is the bombers who set the raid speed.

Helen
217 x 20% = 43,4 mph

217 + 43 = 260 mph.

Oscar cannot fly this slow. So yes, Oscars are too fast to coordinate, while you say the fly together with Helens pretty often.

But what if it is the fighters who set the raid speed if you give them the same destination as the bombers.

Bombers will fly together with fighters provided the cruise speed difference between them will not exceed 20% of fighter cruise speed. I don't know how the game handles that but I don't believe fighter can't fly at sub-cruise speed. Thus, I guess, bombers catch up using their max speeds.

P-38F
340 mph x 20% = 68 mph
340 - 68 = 272 mph

So no coordination with B-17F, cause the speed difference is more like over 40% (136 mph) of the fighter cruise speed.

Oscar
273 mph x 20% = 54,6 mph
273 - 54,6 = 218,4 mph

Now, here there is high chance that Helens will fly with Oscars. They are 1,4 mph above the 20% difference.

Don't ask me about the second part of the sentence about the 30 minute time. I don't understand this part.





< Message edited by Yaab -- 12/9/2016 5:39:20 PM >

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 12
RE: Bombers from Portland and escorts from PM didnīt work - 12/10/2016 3:39:07 AM   
wdolson

 

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From: Near Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

You B-17 F has the cruise speed of 200mph, while P-38F has 340 mph. There is no way they will ever fly together.


Tell that to the 8th AF. Fighters much faster than bombers wove back and forth to pace the bombers.

Bill

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(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 13
RE: Bombers from Portland and escorts from PM didnīt work - 12/11/2016 8:04:17 AM   
Yaab


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From: Poznan, Poland
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I was thinking about such a maneuver but I have never seen it mentioned in the forums.

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Post #: 14
RE: Bombers from Portland and escorts from PM didnīt work - 12/11/2016 1:28:21 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 9564
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I was thinking about such a maneuver but I have never seen it mentioned in the forums.

Probably too difficult to determine fuel usage of such maneuvering, so they went with the max 20% speed differential and randoms on coordination.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 15
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