Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
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Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
Just read an interesting account offering some explanations for some of the questionable actions of commanders at Santa Cruz. The section about the omniscience of Allied SIGINT in 1942 is of particular interest.
http://www.usni.org/magazines/navalhist ... santa-cruz
http://www.usni.org/magazines/navalhist ... santa-cruz
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
- geofflambert
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RE: Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
Wow. All of four comments over a period of five years.
RE: Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
Nice, concise article.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
Considered a Pyrrhic victory for Japan, I personally consider Battle of Santa Cruz as a possible strategic victory for the empire, they failed to exploit it though.
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RE: Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
One thing I always wondered is why the Japanese didn't at least try to take Hornet back to the HI, could've gained very valuable knowledge to have a American radar set in their hands, a couple of American aircraft to study and at the very least have some major amounts of steel to scrap.
Current Games:
WitP:AE PBEM against Greg (Late '44)
AE PBEM against Mogami (Early'44)
WITE PBEM against Boomer Sooner
WitP:AE PBEM against Greg (Late '44)
AE PBEM against Mogami (Early'44)
WITE PBEM against Boomer Sooner
RE: Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
The author was not trying to cover the battle itself, just come up with explanations/rationale for some of the decisions made and unsatisfactory performance (like the US DBs not finding Shokaku and Zuikaku in the last strike so they unloaded on some cruisers).ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Nice, concise article.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
RE: Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
ORIGINAL: SheperdN7
One thing I always wondered is why the Japanese didn't at least try to take Hornet back to the HI, could've gained very valuable knowledge to have a American radar set in their hands, a couple of American aircraft to study and at the very least have some major amounts of steel to scrap.
IIRC, they tried. But the Hornet was dangerous burning hulk, and the few attempts to tow her failed. This is based on my recollection of the events (I don't have a reference here with me) but I'm pretty sure that this is what happened.
"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"
(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"
(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")
RE: Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
Most of the accounts I've seen only mention the Japanese visually assessing the nearby Hornet around 2200 on the 26th Oct and deciding she
was beyond recovery due to end to end fires and having a 45 deg list while settling down by the bow. I've not seen mention of any Japanese
attempts to tow her prior to their decision to scuttle the Hornet with torpedoes half an hour later.
Despite many faulty torpedoes, the USS Mustin and Anderson's Mark 15 efforts probably ensured Hornet would sink anyway and their 400+ 5"
shells (many aimed at the Hornet's aviation gas tanks) created such severe fires that no Japanese would be inclined to go aboard on a
technology hunt.
But if you have a source showing any Japanese towing attempts, I'd be very interested to know what and how they tried.
was beyond recovery due to end to end fires and having a 45 deg list while settling down by the bow. I've not seen mention of any Japanese
attempts to tow her prior to their decision to scuttle the Hornet with torpedoes half an hour later.
Despite many faulty torpedoes, the USS Mustin and Anderson's Mark 15 efforts probably ensured Hornet would sink anyway and their 400+ 5"
shells (many aimed at the Hornet's aviation gas tanks) created such severe fires that no Japanese would be inclined to go aboard on a
technology hunt.
But if you have a source showing any Japanese towing attempts, I'd be very interested to know what and how they tried.
This was the only sig line I could think of.
- LargeSlowTarget
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RE: Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
The section about the omniscience of Allied SIGINT in 1942 is of particular interest.
[&:] But the article says that "...Allied intelligence was not omniscient" and continues that "...estimates were consistently inaccurate..."
RE: Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
That is what makes it interesting - the game models Allied SIGINT as being very comprehensive and accurate even in 1942.ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
The section about the omniscience of Allied SIGINT in 1942 is of particular interest.
[&:] But the article says that "...Allied intelligence was not omniscient" and continues that "...estimates were consistently inaccurate..."
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
RE: Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
I think RFalvo69 was referring to US attempts to tow her (CA Northampton tried) but attacks interfered with the attempts.ORIGINAL: Buckrock
Most of the accounts I've seen only mention the Japanese visually assessing the nearby Hornet around 2200 on the 26th Oct and deciding she
was beyond recovery due to end to end fires and having a 45 deg list while settling down by the bow. I've not seen mention of any Japanese
attempts to tow her prior to their decision to scuttle the Hornet with torpedoes half an hour later.
Despite many faulty torpedoes, the USS Mustin and Anderson's Mark 15 efforts probably ensured Hornet would sink anyway and their 400+ 5"
shells (many aimed at the Hornet's aviation gas tanks) created such severe fires that no Japanese would be inclined to go aboard on a
technology hunt.
But if you have a source showing any Japanese towing attempts, I'd be very interested to know what and how they tried.
The Japanese would have been hard pressed to set up a tow on an unfamiliar ship in the dark and they knew they would be in range of Henderson Field at dawn if they did. I don't recall ever reading about actual attempts to tow - although there was a brief discussion about whether it could be done.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
RE: Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
Thanks, nice article! I opened and just got to reading it today.ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Just read an interesting account offering some explanations for some of the questionable actions of commanders at Santa Cruz. The section about the omniscience of Allied SIGINT in 1942 is of particular interest.
http://www.usni.org/magazines/navalhist ... santa-cruz
Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home
RE: Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
[:-] Hey, you know I can't read - I had to wait for someone to read it to me!ORIGINAL: geofflambert
Wow. All of four comments over a period of five years.
Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home
RE: Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
I'd assumed as well that he may have been thinking of the US towing attempts (finally abandoned after Hornet took her third torpedo hit) but sinceORIGINAL: BBfanboy
I think RFalvo69 was referring to US attempts to tow her (CA Northampton tried) but attacks interfered with the attempts.
he was answering a question about Japanese towing attempts, I thought I'd ask anyway.
Henderson Field wouldn't be much of a threat as it was around 400 miles away, outside the realistic strike range of the Marine SBDs and TBFs basedThe Japanese would have been hard pressed to set up a tow on an unfamiliar ship in the dark and they knew they would be in range of Henderson Field at dawn if they did.
there. B-17s (and even PBYs) from Espiritu Santo were another matter though.
This was the only sig line I could think of.
RE: Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
If anyone is interested, Prados (author of the article) has the book "Islands of Destiny" which analyses the Guadalcanal Campaign both from a
strategic and operational point of view as well as covering US and Japanese Intel and their impact on the campaign
I found it a worthwhile read, particularly to see the influence that US SIGINT and code-breakers had on the major operations.
strategic and operational point of view as well as covering US and Japanese Intel and their impact on the campaign
I found it a worthwhile read, particularly to see the influence that US SIGINT and code-breakers had on the major operations.
This was the only sig line I could think of.
- pontiouspilot
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RE: Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
Islands is a good read. He also has a fairly fresh release focused on Leyte.... it's called Storm Over Leyte.
RE: Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
I read Storm Over Leyte a few months ago. Good book, particularly in its detailing of the Allied and Japanese planning in the lead up
versus how the Invasion of Leyte unfolded. And of course, Prados's solid coverage of the Intelligence aspects to the campaign.
versus how the Invasion of Leyte unfolded. And of course, Prados's solid coverage of the Intelligence aspects to the campaign.
This was the only sig line I could think of.
RE: Interesting Article - USNI Battle of Santa Cruz
Thanks for the referral - will try to lay my hands on it.ORIGINAL: Buckrock
If anyone is interested, Prados (author of the article) has the book "Islands of Destiny" which analyses the Guadalcanal Campaign both from a
strategic and operational point of view as well as covering US and Japanese Intel and their impact on the campaign
I found it a worthwhile read, particularly to see the influence that US SIGINT and code-breakers had on the major operations.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth