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Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 10/29/2016 2:23:57 PM   
Psychobilly

 

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Maybe I am searching on the forum for the wrong words but after 30mins of it I still haven't found any answers so maybe you lot can help me out?

1. How early do you start installing defence bases?
2. Do you install on every station you have and if so do you adjust firepower/armour/Shields for each and every place you put them depending on what you are defending?
3. How early do I need Military ships? I'm paying 800 creds to pirates every mth to keep them from destroying things, which isnt much baring in mind what my income is, but I would still rather not pay them. Should I wait until I'm strong enough to fight them?

Any answers would be appreciated!

Cheers

PB
Post #: 1
RE: Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 10/29/2016 3:01:02 PM   
Bingeling

 

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1: Not all that early, maybe one at the capital early on. Save them for the very valuable targets (capital, and the colonies worth more than that one).

2: I never bother tweaking designs, and as said above, they are mostly extra help in defense of valuable targets.

3: It is a matter of preference. I suggest you experiment a bit in your games. In general you do not need military until you are attacked (or want to attack), but if you fight pirates, that is from the very start of the game.

It is difficult to give exact advice, but I would not fight pirates until I am able to bust their bases. That is the way to fight them, you won't manage to defend many vulnerable colonies against them. What you need in order to take down a base depends on your tech level av ship designs. With default, not very advanced ships, I would suggest some 40 destroyers/frigates (and maybe some distractions) to take down a large pirate spaceport.

What kind of tech level you have by the time you can field 40 ships, depends on your race and research speed setting...

With better tech and larger ships, you need less ships, of course. And it always helps not having 40 pirate ships helping the spaceport while you try to destroy it, thus distractions...

(in reply to Psychobilly)
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RE: Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 10/29/2016 6:32:00 PM   
Serenitis

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

...I would not fight pirates until I am able to bust their bases.


I always had the oposite experience with pirates, feeding them anything only makes them stronger and more of a nuisance.
You can police a decent enough area of space early game just with stripped down missile spam ships. Even a pack of pirate raiders will turn and run if you throw enough missiles at them, and you might even get lucky enough to destroy one of thier ships and put them at even more of a disadvantage.

If you can turn back the initial raid, a pirate gang will mostly leave you alone for being "too much trouble".
On a prewarp start a default small space port and 3 escorts will defend you against a pack of at least 5 pirates, and adding more escorts is trivial compared to paying out "protection" money every month.

The first thing I do after building my port and initial scout, is redesign my escort to use only missiles and have both engagement orders set to standoff. Then build 3-5 of them and let them patrol the homeworld.
Those ships will then be the entirety of my navy until I'm ready to start expanding out of the system.

Another thing that helps keep pirates at bay is putting a stack of shields and weapons on everything.
A mine with a half-dozen assorted weapons and a fighter bay is not an attractive target for a lone raider.

Defence bases are not something I use a lot of. A major colony might get some forts around it if it's near a source of trouble, but otherwise they are mostly ignored.
They can however be used as "black market" miners if you fit them out with mining gear and commerce depots, as you can still build a fort on a world that already has a mine even if it's not your mine.

Play around and see what works for you.

(in reply to Bingeling)
Post #: 3
RE: Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 10/29/2016 6:49:51 PM   
btd64


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I get lucky. I always find a Capital ship just after I have a fast warp drive. Then I kick the Pirate A**....GP

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(in reply to Serenitis)
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RE: Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 10/29/2016 7:34:17 PM   
RemoteLeg


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quote:

1. How early do you start installing defence bases?

When I first started playing DW I often built defensive bases around my home world - usually 2 or 3. Now I don't do that anymore and rely on mobile defensive fleets. That way I can advance these fleets closer to the front lines as my empire expands. With a large empire in the later game, it isn't necessary to have a large military presence far back toward the center - just a few emergency skirmishers is usually sufficient.

Personally, I think it's best to not build any military ships or bases until I've at least researched some decent weapons, so I usually research for a few years before I build anything military.

quote:

2. Do you install on every station you have and if so do you adjust firepower/armour/Shields for each and every place you put them depending on what you are defending?

I certainly don't put defense bases on everything. Some colonies or mining stations are simply not worth defending. The one place I might build a defense base is to protect my research stations. They never move, I don't arm them, and my scientists are too valuable to lose.

Or perhaps you're asking if I put weapons on all my base structures?

The answer to that is "no". I put weapons on defensive bases and some space port designs - period. This leaves more room on the other structures (research stations, mining stations, etc.) for more of the stuff they need to do their job and I rely on small fleets to protect them.

I put some weapons on small space ports because they are often near the front, but I want to get them up and running as soon as possible so I don't put too many.
I put lots of weapons on large space ports because I build them in hot combat zones to refuel my battle fleets.
I put minimal or no weapons on my medium bases because I keep that design for my colonies at the back of my empire. These colonies are far from the front line so the space port's job is simply to collect resources from traders and build warships that then travel to the front lines. When my front line advances I "upgrade" my large ports to medium ones.

When I build defensive bases I have just one design. I don't adjust firepower/armor/shields or anything else because it's too fiddly. When I upgrade my design for defensive bases I want to be able to go into the menu and just tell them all to upgrade to the latest design. I don't want to look at each base and make a decision. Keep it simple - it really pays off in the later game.



quote:

3. How early do I need Military ships? I'm paying 800 creds to pirates every mth to keep them from destroying things, which isnt much baring in mind what my income is, but I would still rather not pay them. Should I wait until I'm strong enough to fight them?

I research some decent weapons before building military ships (see above).

The pirates are very powerful relative to you at the beginning so pay them off until you know you can push them back. If you attack them too soon they will harass you constantly and you'll spread yourself too thin trying to defend all your mining stations when you should be concentrating on building up your economy.
Note: Don't listen to your advisors when they say you should cancel the treaty with the pirates. They usually start complaining about this long before you're powerful enough to fight the pirates. If you cancel the protection money the pirates will come knocking.

I've discovered that the amount of protection money pirates charge is dependent on your income at the time the pirates first offer protection. If you drop your income as low as possible by building things that require maintenance early on (e.g. research bases, construction ships, etc.), your protection bill will be lower. Once that's established you can scale back the construction, raise your income, and continue paying the lower rate indefinitely. It saves a few bucks in the long run.
Note: Income and cash balance are not the same thing. Your cash on hand has no impact of the amount they charge.


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RE: Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 10/29/2016 8:20:40 PM   
Bingeling

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Serenitis


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

...I would not fight pirates until I am able to bust their bases.


I always had the oposite experience with pirates, feeding them anything only makes them stronger and more of a nuisance.
You can police a decent enough area of space early game just with stripped down missile spam ships. Even a pack of pirate raiders will turn and run if you throw enough missiles at them, and you might even get lucky enough to destroy one of thier ships and put them at even more of a disadvantage.


Well, I never pay pirates, but I am not sure that is the best idea for a brand new player :)

(in reply to Serenitis)
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RE: Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 10/29/2016 10:17:05 PM   
RemoteLeg


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Pirates are the bullies of DW, so it is a tough call sometimes whether to pay them or not.
- If you can fight them off decisively they will flee and leave you alone for a while.
- If you fight and lose they will chew you to pieces.

When they first arrive, click on their ships to see how powerful they are compared to yours.

There's always the wreck of a powerful ship in you home system, so if you repair it early it gives you a good edge against the pirates for a while.

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RE: Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 10/30/2016 11:19:42 AM   
stuart3

 

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quote:

3. How early do I need Military ships? I'm paying 800 creds to pirates every mth to keep them from destroying things, which isnt much baring in mind what my income is, but I would still rather not pay them. Should I wait until I'm strong enough to fight them?


DW has so many variable parameters that you need to take some of the forum advice with a small pinch of Korabbian Spice. The advice from the advisor will be good at the settings he plays at, but think whether it is quite so relevant to the parameters you are playing at. I always start my games in pre-warp, so if you don't then check whether this applies so well to you.

I always begin by building a default design Space Port, usually medium but occasionally small or large depending on my starting system.

When the pirates arrive they will usually send two or three escorts or a resupply ship. If it is the resupply ship then pay them off. You can't handle it at this stage. This will start you on the process of being liked by the pirates due to your "friendly" relationship. But they will get really angry with you when you eventually renege on the agreement and will attack you when they can.

More usually it is the escorts they send. If your base is incomplete then again pay them protection money.

But ... If your base has been completed then refuse to pay the protection money. The escorts will attack the base and it will wipe them out. Instead of getting angry the pirates will accept the defeat and will be "cautious" with you and give you a wide berth.

To give your base the best chance of being completed before the pirates turn up, either build a smaller base and/or set the pirate proximity setting to "distant". (I did say you want to consider the effect of these starting parameters on advice).

The pirate ship with the greatest potential to cause you early game frustration is their humble explorer. One of these arriving and scanning your system will always discover that abandoned frigate sitting at your system's outermost frozen gas giant. That frigate will join the first ship to get to it and if it joins a pirate faction then it gives these pirates a permanent ship in your system. It can't leave because it doesn't have a hyperdrive and the pirates don't have a base in your system where they can upgrade it. Eventually you will have to destroy it and that really P***es the pirates off!

I always send my first explorer straight out to recruit that frigate. I might micromanage the explorer's flight to pass, but not explore, another planet if there is one close enough to it's flight path, but I really don't want to risk the pirates getting that frigate.

(in reply to RemoteLeg)
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RE: Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 10/30/2016 8:05:00 PM   
Serenitis

 

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Advising them to tank thier economy and put themselves in the red by voluntarily handing over all thier money is worse advice.

I will admit I am dead set against paying "protection" as my first ever game against the updated pirates I did exactly that because that's what everyone said you should do. Only I ended up abandoning that game because I had a negative income, and could literally do nothing but sit there and farm money for someone else. Couldn't build or upgrade anything.
Pirates can suck a fat one. Give them nothing!

It's not hard either.
All you need is a small space port and 3 escorts, the pirates turn up take a shot at your HW get a face full of missiles, and then run away. (Never seen them bring thier supply ship - I might just have been "lucky" in that regard though.)
You won't get bothered again until you start flinging scouts everywhere. And mostly that will be solo raiders plinking at your mines because they will have found someone else to bilk money out of by then, and maintaing that becomes thier priority.

(in reply to Bingeling)
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RE: Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 10/30/2016 8:14:41 PM   
Kayoz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychobilly
3. How early do I need Military ships? I'm paying 800 creds to pirates every mth to keep them from destroying things, which isnt much baring in mind what my income is, but I would still rather not pay them. Should I wait until I'm strong enough to fight them?


One point that hasn't been mentioned yet, is that the 800/month you're paying them applies ONLY to the particular pirate group. As others expand and pop up (assuming you haven't turned off pirate respawn), you'll have to pay others. So, long term it's impossible to pay them all off.

That is also not addressing the issue of pirates attacking you regardless of your "paid up" status. If you don't build defences, they can and will attack you for the fat lewt on your HW.

I'd suggest paying them off only till you can build up some defences sufficient to resist a moderate attack. Invest early in assault shuttles, as scrapping captured pirate ships can be a very important boost to your early game tech.

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(in reply to Psychobilly)
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RE: Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 10/30/2016 11:15:12 PM   
Retreat1970


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Pirates, unfortunately, are exploitable. Especially in prewarp.

My opinion: Mobility is far more useful than a defensive base. You can do much more with ships, than DB's that only "defend X". End opinion.

(in reply to Kayoz)
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RE: Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 10/31/2016 4:41:30 AM   
syntaXerroR

 

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Personally, I only ever build defensive bases around the planet with the 'Bakuras Highspeed Shipyards' wonder built. Otherwise I just build Spaceports at every colony.

I have a Small Spaceport design that is cheap and fast to build just for the bonus from Medical and Recreational modules and some additional docking bays to increase Freighter throughput.

Then I have a Medium Spaceport for colonies I deem are worthy of it. This is usually determined from the number of pops on the planet and if it can afford to cover the cost of the larger spaceport.

And Finally I have 2 Large spaceports designs, one with 20 shipyards and another with 1. They are both armed to the teeth and usually have a minimum of 5000 shields early game. These are deployed strategically around the empire for starship construction redundancy or valuable colony protection.

You best bet though is to only use small spaceports for their bonuses at every colony (keep them cheap with minimal modules for fast build when they die, because they will) and have larger fleets for mobility to be able to react to threats as they arise. A good deep space detection net of long range scanner bases is crucial to being able to react in time to said threats.

TIP: Remove fuel tanks and cargo bays down to 1 on stations over colonies. Also you only ever need 1 of each construction plant unless you have mega shipyards. Someone did the maths and I'm not sure if this is correct but you only need 1 plant per 30 shipyards.

< Message edited by syntaXerroR -- 10/31/2016 4:46:10 AM >

(in reply to Retreat1970)
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RE: Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 10/31/2016 6:26:58 AM   
RemoteLeg


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quote:

You best bet though is to only use small spaceports for their bonuses at every colony

I use the Star Base structure to hold the bonus modules (Medical, Recreational, etc.). It's much cheaper and has lower maintenance than a small space port because it does not require construction yards.

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RE: Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 10/31/2016 8:23:29 AM   
syntaXerroR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteLeg
I use the Star Base structure to hold the bonus modules (Medical, Recreational, etc.). It's much cheaper and has lower maintenance than a small space port because it does not require construction yards.


Nice idea. I use the spaceport as it can be upgraded to a medium and a large if necessary. I might consider this in future if I know I definitely won't be upgrading the small space port. Maybe for colonies that are far from the front.

No matter how much you play this game, you (read I) can always learn more.

(in reply to RemoteLeg)
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RE: Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 10/31/2016 7:36:40 PM   
Psychobilly

 

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Thanks for all the replies people especially regarding Defensive Bases. If I hadn't asked the question I would of ended up building them on every mining station I had!

(in reply to syntaXerroR)
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RE: Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 11/1/2016 2:01:10 AM   
Kayoz


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From: Timbuktu
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quote:

ORIGINAL: syntaXerroR


quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteLeg
I use the Star Base structure to hold the bonus modules (Medical, Recreational, etc.). It's much cheaper and has lower maintenance than a small space port because it does not require construction yards.


Nice idea. I use the spaceport as it can be upgraded to a medium and a large if necessary. I might consider this in future if I know I definitely won't be upgrading the small space port. Maybe for colonies that are far from the front.

No matter how much you play this game, you (read I) can always learn more.


AFAIK, having too many space ports has a detrimental effect on your civilian transport infrastructure - meaning that transports spend a disproportionate amount of time reshuffling resources around your planets instead of bringing them in from trade or mining stations. I think it's worth noting before suggesting to new players to build space ports on every planet.

RemoteLeg's use of Star Bases for med/rec bonuses has merit - and if you want to add construction yards to facilitate repair, that works fine as well; unless the planet runs out of resource stockpiles necessary (AFAIK, repairs at space ports require resources... but I'm not certain).

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RE: Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 11/1/2016 5:16:50 AM   
Retreat1970


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quote:

and if you want to add construction yards to facilitate repair, that works fine as well


Are you sure? If I remember right, ships wouldn't repair at a star base because the ships wouldn't recognize it as a valid repair point.

Before I get blasted for being totally wrong, I don't remember if it was this or something else.

Also, I know the argument about too many spaceports, but honestly I can't tell the difference. I've played spaceports on everything to spaceports on a few. Maybe it's just me, but my game wasn't hurt either way.

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 17
RE: Some questions on defensive bases & Military Ships - 11/1/2016 6:47:03 AM   
Bingeling

 

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When it comes to "spaceports on everything", it is worth nothing that any negative effect depends quite a bit on style of play. A "slower" player has more time to build up resources.

Also, there have been quite a few "improved freighter logic" lines in patch notes since the "Single spaceport" revolution of this forum.

(in reply to Retreat1970)
Post #: 18
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