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OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Modern Times - 10/21/2016 2:47:55 AM   
Rusty1961

 

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https://www.yahoo.com/news/duterte-meets-xi-philippines-cozies-beijing-044808788.html

Wow. I would say this is the biggest set-back since Saigon fell or Pearl Harbor was bombed.

Looks like Viet Nam is now surrounded, Thailand is in trouble and the tanker traffic to Japan had better finder a route from the US instead.

Head-spinning.

I've always hoped a modern-version of WitP would be produced. It would be hot!
Post #: 1
RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 3:48:26 AM   
Treetop64


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Philippine politicians and heads of state in particular have a history of being highly corrupt even by the standards of the profession. Duterte's rather abrupt and overt willingness to cozy up to the Chinese government, and throw insults at American officials in return, suggests that he is already deep in Xi's pockets.

Duterte comes off as a simple individual, impressionable and easily influenced, not terribly intelligent.

If it's any consolation, many Filipinos are not happy about this at all.

It will be interesting to see what the Obama Administration does (or, more likely, doesn't do) about the situation...

< Message edited by Treetop64 -- 10/21/2016 3:08:43 PM >


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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 4:00:13 AM   
Rusty1961

 

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Agreed: I assumed that he was carrying Xi's water when he started mouthing-off on Obama this August.

What I find interesting is just how this changes the balance of power in the Western Pacific should China start deploying forces to say Subic Bay, etc.

I mean to think of Subic being a Chinese base is blasphemy having been the son of an American vet who fought to liberate the Philippines in the '40s.

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 4:08:10 AM   
Anachro


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The PRC itself is blasphemy given the large majority of the Chinese blood spilled in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War was Nationalist blood. Meanwhile, Mao and his cronies went off to the mountains to hide and bide their time till everything blew over. History happens; and sometimes, you hate it.

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 4:24:11 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

The PRC itself is blasphemy given the large majority of the Chinese blood spilled in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War was Nationalist blood. Meanwhile, Mao and his cronies went off to the mountains to hide and bide their time till everything blew over. History happens; and sometimes, you hate it.

I don't know much about the Sino-Japanese war but I was under the impression that both Nationalist and Communist troops lost millions of soldiers. Wasn't it the Communists that gave the Japanese a big setback at Hankow or Wuchow with an operation they knew would lead to the loss of hundreds of thousands of their troops when the Japanese brought in reinforcements?

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 6:10:18 AM   
SheperdN7


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Rusty1961, I highly recommend Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations. Its essentially a modern version of the classic Harpoon Pen and Paper game. Great scenarios and the realism is off the charts.

I'm looking at this situation from a Canadian perspective, so I have to ask, what assets do you Yanks have in the pacific that are in range to counter this?

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 6:26:48 AM   
szmike

 

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Not to try any flame, so it will be first and last comment on this, but why is it "correct" to always follow Americans, but "not correct" to change course?

Talk about megalomania

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 8:27:31 AM   
Commander Cody


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The PI is about to find out the difference between living under Uncle Sugar's hegemony and Uncle Xi's hegemony.

Cheers,
CC

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 8:35:59 AM   
Reg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SheperdN7

Rusty1961, I highly recommend Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations. Its essentially a modern version of the classic Harpoon Pen and Paper game. Great scenarios and the realism is off the charts.



Command Live - Episode 3: Spratly Spat



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Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 1:14:14 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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Maybe Duarte knows America is not what it use to be and it's result on the world stage.

Why deal with the middleman.

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 1:15:25 PM   
Anthropoid


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Concerning. However, whenever Chinese Imperialism is involved I always remind myself of one thing: China is a powder keg. One cannot simultaneously promote modern development and autocratic repression, eventually something must give. Prior to Xi taking office, there were some overtures coming from China that the new leader would be a reformer, who would carry China even further toward the Western model of freedom, transparency and due process. This has not come to pass, and if anything China has regressed some in terms of individual liberty. The power structure in control of China are operating on borrowed time and their aggressive expansionism are likely in part an attempt to compensate for this deficiency.

As such, I'm more concerned about a civil war in China than I am about China exerting more formal "control" over territories than they already exert.

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 2:16:26 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Concerning. However, whenever Chinese Imperialism is involved I always remind myself of one thing: China is a powder keg. One cannot simultaneously promote modern development and autocratic repression, eventually something must give. Prior to Xi taking office, there were some overtures coming from China that the new leader would be a reformer, who would carry China even further toward the Western model of freedom, transparency and due process. This has not come to pass, and if anything China has regressed some in terms of individual liberty. The power structure in control of China are operating on borrowed time and their aggressive expansionism are likely in part an attempt to compensate for this deficiency.

As such, I'm more concerned about a civil war in China than I am about China exerting more formal "control" over territories than they already exert.

You're not talking about the US of A...?.........

Fred


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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 2:25:57 PM   
Encircled


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Well, at least he's not going to be criticized about his human rights record by the Chinese, and I bet he gets to keep all those "disputed" islands in the South China Sea.

I don't know, but how many decades are the PLN behind the USN roughly?

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 5:22:02 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

https://www.yahoo.com/news/duterte-meets-xi-philippines-cozies-beijing-044808788.html

Wow. I would say this is the biggest set-back since Saigon fell or Pearl Harbor was bombed.

Looks like Viet Nam is now surrounded, Thailand is in trouble and the tanker traffic to Japan had better finder a route from the US instead.

Head-spinning.

I've always hoped a modern-version of WitP would be produced. It would be hot!

I don't understand this "allies with China/Russia". Is there a war on?

Fred




_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018F2QMEW?*Version*=1&*entries*=0

(in reply to Rusty1961)
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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 5:57:48 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Well, at least he's not going to be criticized about his human rights record by the Chinese, and I bet he gets to keep all those "disputed" islands in the South China Sea.

I don't know, but how many decades are the PLN behind the USN roughly?

I'm not so sure about the islands going to the Philippines. The only reason anyone wants the islands is to extend their claim on the oil under the sea nearby. And as WITP-AE has shown, nations will fight over oil resources.

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 6:12:23 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
What I find interesting is just how this changes the balance of power in the Western Pacific


The balance of power already changed. I bow to the new masters from the Celestial Empire of the Center. Resistance is futile

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 6:39:03 PM   
Anthropoid


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Concerning. However, whenever Chinese Imperialism is involved I always remind myself of one thing: China is a powder keg. One cannot simultaneously promote modern development and autocratic repression, eventually something must give. Prior to Xi taking office, there were some overtures coming from China that the new leader would be a reformer, who would carry China even further toward the Western model of freedom, transparency and due process. This has not come to pass, and if anything China has regressed some in terms of individual liberty. The power structure in control of China are operating on borrowed time and their aggressive expansionism are likely in part an attempt to compensate for this deficiency.

As such, I'm more concerned about a civil war in China than I am about China exerting more formal "control" over territories than they already exert.

You're not talking about the US of A...?.........

Fred



An epidemic of apathy and cynicism is not likely to lead to a civil war. Plus American citizens can mouth off and say pretty much anything they want. As long as they don't post state secrets to wikileaks, they have little to fear from the gubmint (at this point).

The U.S. is, indeed, an ailing young-adult nation but it was born with a coherent and reasonable vision and it may well recover and experience still more "Golden Ages." Certainly, the vast majority of humanity have migrated toward the broad outlines of the "American way" both geographically, culturally, ideologically, technologically. The world is so embroiled with the United States at this point, it seems unlikely that many who cast disparaging views her way would in fact like to see her go down, and even if they do, they are in a distinct minority. The United States remains the most popular nation on Earth, and the center of global attention, whether it continues to exemplify the ideals on which it was founded or not.

China is a critically ill ancient society which transformed from an autocratic feudal society into a revolutionary anti-colonial society and thence into a "communist" autocracy, indeed a true ideologically-based tyranny. Since that time, China has been forced by history to transform itself into something for which there are no exact precedents in world history: a state-controlled neo-mercantilist pirate society, with nostalgic connections to its "communist" autocratic roots and well-entrenched traditions of supremacist intolerance toward all forms of "diversity" (thought, identity, and rhetoric) which are not sanctioned by the ruling regime.

The clock is ticking for China, and when the bell tolls it is not likely to be pleasant or pretty for any of us, because it is certainly true that China is also deeply embroiled throughout global commerce and finance.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

https://www.yahoo.com/news/duterte-meets-xi-philippines-cozies-beijing-044808788.html

Wow. I would say this is the biggest set-back since Saigon fell or Pearl Harbor was bombed.

Looks like Viet Nam is now surrounded, Thailand is in trouble and the tanker traffic to Japan had better finder a route from the US instead.

Head-spinning.

I've always hoped a modern-version of WitP would be produced. It would be hot!

I don't understand this "allies with China/Russia". Is there a war on?

Fred


Many, as you well know; and few of which can be noted to be conflicts over which China or Russia or many Western nations share common goals and interests. China and Russia remain adversaries to "the West" for various reasons, with Western caution, suspicions and/or militarism being a minor contributor.

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 10/21/2016 6:45:23 PM >


_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 6:51:03 PM   
John 3rd


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There has been no cogent Foreign Policy the last eight years here other then to apologize and draw down the military. This is leading to all sorts of consequences. Nature abhors a vacuum and it is presently being filled.

I am rather terrified of the growth in power by both Russia and China. Concur that China has VAST internal issues. RUSSIA is who scares this boy...

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 6:56:26 PM   
Anthropoid


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

There has been no cogent Foreign Policy the last eight years here other then to apologize and draw down the military. This is leading to all sorts of consequences. Nature abhors a vacuum and it is presently being filled.

I am rather terrified of the growth in power by both Russia and China. Concur that China has VAST internal issues. RUSSIA is who scares this boy...


Arguably one could extend that "no cogent Foreign Policy" back to about 1991 ;)

When the USSR came apart at the seams, "we" let our guard down.

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 7:04:27 PM   
John 3rd


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I would agree with those points.

We came CLOSE to a cogent Foreign Policy in 2001. I don't say a GOOD Foreign Policy but at least it had clear vision to start with.


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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 9:31:56 PM   
geofflambert


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Duterte is a psychopath. Reminds me of another one we're dealing with but worse.

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 9:52:51 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

The PRC itself is blasphemy given the large majority of the Chinese blood spilled in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War was Nationalist blood. Meanwhile, Mao and his cronies went off to the mountains to hide and bide their time till everything blew over. History happens; and sometimes, you hate it.

I don't know much about the Sino-Japanese war but I was under the impression that both Nationalist and Communist troops lost millions of soldiers. Wasn't it the Communists that gave the Japanese a big setback at Hankow or Wuchow with an operation they knew would lead to the loss of hundreds of thousands of their troops when the Japanese brought in reinforcements?


It is estimated that only about 3% of the total casualties taken by Chinese forces in WWII were from the Red Chinese forces. They were not as involved in the conflict as they or many would have you believe. The reasons are many and it was a bit more complex than Anachro states. The Reds were virtually wiped out by the Nationalist at the time the real fighting started with the Japanese. They were truly impoverished and not in much position to pose a threat to either the Japanese or Nationalists. They wisely chose to avoid major fighting with either side and primarily spent the war recovering from their pre-war disasters and consolidating their hold on the territory that they did hold. That territory held little to no strategic value to the Japanese, so Japan was content to leave them alone as well. Both Mao and Chaing were well aware of the global situation and knew that the Japanese were going to go down and be defeated elsewhere, and eventually would have to leave China. That is why their focus was on the real political threat that they both perceived to be which was internal not external. The conflict in China was a complex maze of political and national issues and involved a heck of a lot more than just Reds vs Nationalists. I don't think that it can be explained in simple generalizations.

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/21/2016 11:40:08 PM   
bobdina

 

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he changed his mind http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/10/21/duterte-ties-united-states-philippines/92526252/

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/22/2016 12:27:37 AM   
geofflambert


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He's not changed, I think the Chinese should treat him in a similar fashion as they do Kim Jong Un. China may be the only place he can travel outside of the Philippines without being arrested and shipped off to The Hague.

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/22/2016 12:33:27 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bobdina
he changed his mind


Are you sure? China has to be Plan B. Original Plan A is extort the US. He might succeed go figure


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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/22/2016 1:12:54 AM   
Big B

 

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+1 I have to agree


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
....

It is estimated that only about 3% of the total casualties taken by Chinese forces in WWII were from the Red Chinese forces. They were not as involved in the conflict as they or many would have you believe. The reasons are many and it was a bit more complex than Anachro states. The Reds were virtually wiped out by the Nationalist at the time the real fighting started with the Japanese. They were truly impoverished and not in much position to pose a threat to either the Japanese or Nationalists. They wisely chose to avoid major fighting with either side and primarily spent the war recovering from their pre-war disasters and consolidating their hold on the territory that they did hold. That territory held little to no strategic value to the Japanese, so Japan was content to leave them alone as well. Both Mao and Chaing were well aware of the global situation and knew that the Japanese were going to go down and be defeated elsewhere, and eventually would have to leave China. That is why their focus was on the real political threat that they both perceived to be which was internal not external. The conflict in China was a complex maze of political and national issues and involved a heck of a lot more than just Reds vs Nationalists. I don't think that it can be explained in simple generalizations.



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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/22/2016 1:22:51 PM   
oaltinyay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

https://www.yahoo.com/news/duterte-meets-xi-philippines-cozies-beijing-044808788.html

Wow. I would say this is the biggest set-back since Saigon fell or Pearl Harbor was bombed.

Looks like Viet Nam is now surrounded, Thailand is in trouble and the tanker traffic to Japan had better finder a route from the US instead.

Head-spinning.

I've always hoped a modern-version of WitP would be produced. It would be hot!


times come and go and alliances and balances shift, change etc. what's so different about it ? Or are you worried for the interests of the US ?

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RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/22/2016 1:41:54 PM   
GetAssista

 

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As long as US remains industrial and, what is more important, innovation powerhouse things will be fine geopolitically. And this is assured for like a dozen years at least with the current system, harder to predict tech farther these days. Everyone and their dog considers US assets the safest, and US debt the most desirable to invest to. Whatever squabbles are usually caused by someone bargaining for more US favors, or using US as a convenient scarecrow for internal reasons like NK or Russia.

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Post #: 28
RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/22/2016 1:51:27 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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"I was only kidding we are still friends. See Iam smiling to you face"


US to provide $180-M aid to Philippines, Fiscal year 2017 is from Oct. 1, 2016 to Sept. 30, 2017

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 10/22/2016 1:52:35 PM >

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Post #: 29
RE: OT: Philippines Allies with China/Russia-WitP:Moder... - 10/22/2016 4:42:46 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
As long as US remains industrial and, what is more important, innovation powerhouse


As if that was doable. It is not... since the 60s when profits in the productive economy diminished and therefore speculative operations made sense. You can't blame then. Add to this the later industrial delocalization. Again, you can't blame them.

The only good thing is that China (or the Yellow Peril some or many of you fear) will possibly end up doing exactly the same, producing manufactures abroad and precipitate her own doom, just like the West (Germany an exception) is doing as we speak

Africa anyone as the next big thing?

As for innovation powerhouse, why would you invent, research when you're not producing anymore? It does not make any sense.

This is a train crash in slow motion. And the many personages of this tragicomedy (since the 60s) were in fact following the rules. Socially speaking you cannot blame them. I don't.

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 10/22/2016 4:47:17 PM >


_____________________________

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