Hitler and the First World War

Gamers can also use this forum to chat about any game related subject, news, rumours etc.

Moderator: maddog986

User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

Hitler and the First World War

Post by warspite1 »

Right, there has been an interesting debate in the Program/Film/Documentary thread about a new 3-part history on Adolf Hitler.

Could I ask someone who knows about the German Army in WWI to comment on the following. There is debate over Hitler's rank following his one and only promotion during the war.

- Was he promoted to Corporal (or the German Army equivalent)
- Was he promoted to Private First Class?
- Are either of the two ranks named above NCO positions?

Thanks.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
wodin
Posts: 10709
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 3:13 am
Location: England
Contact:

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by wodin »

There is no Private First Class rank in the German Army. The rank above a private is Lance Corporal then we have Corporal and then Sergeant. As for Hitler's rank I'm not sure. During WW2 he was called "Corporal" behind closed doors in a derogatory way by Generals when they thought he was interfering. So I always thought he was a Corporal though he may well have just been a Lance Corporal.

Just read he was promoted to Gefreiter which is a Lance Corporal. Makes sense.

It was considered an NCO rank.

LINK

"One of the best-known holders of the rank of Gefreiter was Adolf Hitler, who held the rank in the Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment 16 of the Royal Bavarian Army during World War I."
User avatar
MakeeLearn
Posts: 4274
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:01 pm

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by MakeeLearn »

The answer may be in the pictures.


wearing the Iron Cross, nothing on collar. OR is there if you look close enough up the collar.

Image
Attachments
hh.jpg
hh.jpg (66.36 KiB) Viewed 473 times






User avatar
MakeeLearn
Posts: 4274
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:01 pm

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by MakeeLearn »

Hitler or Alec Guinness...

no rank.

Image
Attachments
Hitler_1914_1918.jpg
Hitler_1914_1918.jpg (116.29 KiB) Viewed 474 times






User avatar
MakeeLearn
Posts: 4274
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:01 pm

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by MakeeLearn »

Is that a rank disc on his collar

Image

Image
Attachments
hhxx.jpg
hhxx.jpg (66.75 KiB) Viewed 473 times
rank276428.jpg
rank276428.jpg (71.16 KiB) Viewed 474 times






User avatar
Neilster
Posts: 2879
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:52 pm
Location: Devonport, Tasmania, Australia

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by Neilster »

ORIGINAL: wodin

There is no Private First Class rank in the German Army. The rank above a private is Lance Corporal then we have Corporal and then Sergeant. As for Hitler's rank I'm not sure. During WW2 he was called "Corporal" behind closed doors in a derogatory way by Generals when they thought he was interfering. So I always thought he was a Corporal though he may well have just been a Lance Corporal.

Just read he was promoted to Gefreiter which is a Lance Corporal. Makes sense.

It was considered an NCO rank.

LINK

"One of the best-known holders of the rank of Gefreiter was Adolf Hitler, who held the rank in the Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment 16 of the Royal Bavarian Army during World War I."
I don't think Gefreiter was an NCO rank. From ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Ar ... erman_Army

Enlisted (Mannschaften/Gemeine) ranks
Musketeer (Musketier, Prussian army infantry regiments), Infantryman (Infanterist, Bavarian army infantry regiments), Soldier (Soldat, Saxon army infantry regiments), Gunner (Kanonier, foot artillery), Pioneer (Pionier, pioneer branch). Other unit-specific enlisted ranks were: Fusilier (Füsilier), Grenadier (Grenadier), Huntsman otherwise Light-Infantryman (Jäger), Dragoon (Dragoner), Hussar (Husar), Cuirassier (Kürassier), Uhlan (Ulan), Fusilier Guard (Garde-Füsilier), Grenadier Guard (Garde-Grenadier), etc.
Lance Corporal (Gefreiter); up until 1918 the only rank (with exception of Obergefreiter in the foot artillery) to which an enlisted soldier could be promoted, the rank was a deputy rank to the Corporal (Unteroffizier)[13] rank.[14]
Senior Lance Corporal (Obergefreiter); established in the Prussian Army from 1846 to 1853, reestablished in 1859, then in foot artillery only, replacing the artillery Bombardier rank that had been introduced in 1730.[14]
Additionally, the following voluntary enlistees were distinguished:

One-Year Volunteer Enlistee (Einjährig-Freiwilliger): despite the name, one-year volunteers were actually conscripts who served a short-term form of active military service, open for enlistees up to the age of 25. Such enlisted soldiers were usually high school graduates (Matura, Abitur), who would opt to serve a one-year term rather than the regular two or three-year conscription term, with free selection of their chosen military service branch and unit, but throughout were obligated to equip and subsist themselves at entirely their own cost. In today's monetary value this could at bare minimum cost some 10,000 euro, which purposely reserved this path open to officer-material sons from mostly affluent social class families wishing to pursue the Reserve-Officer path; it was the specific intention of Wilhelm II that such Reserve-Officer career path should only be open to members of so-called "officer-material" social classes.[15] On absolving their primary recruit training and shorter military service term, those aspiring to become Reserve-Officers would have to qualify and achieve suitability for promotion to the Gefreiter rank and then would continue to receive further specialized instruction until the end of their one-year term, usually attaining and leaving as surplus Corporals (überzählige Unteroffiziere) (Reservists), with the opportunity to advance further as reservists. Enlistees who did not aspire to officer grade would leave at the end of their one-year term as Gemeine[16] (Ordinary soldier) enlisted rank (for example Musketier or Infanterist) and a six-year reserve duty obligation.[15] Eligibility for this specific one-year path of military service was a privilege approved upon examining the enlistee's suitability and academic qualifications.
Long-Term Volunteer Enlistee "Capitulant" (Kapitulant): enlisted soldiers who had already absolved their regular two or three-year military conscription term and had now volunteered to continue serving for further terms, minimum was 4 years, generally up to 12 years.[17][18]
Note: Einjährig-Freiwilliger and Kapitulant were not ranks as such during this specific period of use, but voluntary military enlistee designations. They however, wore a specific uniform distinction (twisted wool piping along their shoulder epaulette edging for Einjährig-Freiwilliger, the Kapitulant a narrow band across their lower shoulder epaulette) in the colours of their respective nation state. This distinction was never removed throughout their military service nor during any rank grade advancements.

Non-commissioned officers and warrant officers / Unteroffiziere
Junior NCOs (NCOs without the lanyard) / Unteroffizier ohne Portepee
Corporal/Sub-Officer (Unteroffizier)
Sergeant


It does, however, appear that...

"At the Nuremberg Trials, two of his former superiors testified that Hitler had refused to be considered for promotion."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_ ... olf_Hitler

Cheers, Neilster
Cheers, Neilster
User avatar
MakeeLearn
Posts: 4274
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:01 pm

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by MakeeLearn »

Attachments
bbb.jpg
bbb.jpg (190.16 KiB) Viewed 473 times






User avatar
operating
Posts: 3158
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:34 am

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by operating »

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

German NCO WWI

Image
From what I researched the NCO button/disk on this soldier's collar may indicate what region or regiment the soldier is in.

http://www.worldwar1.com/sfgrank.htm
and one flew over the Cuckoos nest
User avatar
wodin
Posts: 10709
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 3:13 am
Location: England
Contact:

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by wodin »

Attn: Neilster..my first thought was no, yet it seems different websites say different things. The website I linked to puts Lance Corporal as an NCO.

Even mentioned the NCO buttons where smaller on the Lance Corporal uniform..(scroll down halfway)

LINK

"Gefreiter

(Lance Corporal) Same as for Obergefreiter, but the NCO buttons were smaller."


User avatar
Neilster
Posts: 2879
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:52 pm
Location: Devonport, Tasmania, Australia

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by Neilster »

ORIGINAL: wodin

Attn: Neilster..my first thought was no, yet it seems different websites say different things. The website I linked to puts Lance Corporal as an NCO.

Even mentioned the NCO buttons where smaller on the Lance Corporal uniform..(scroll down halfway)

LINK

"Gefreiter

(Lance Corporal) Same as for Obergefreiter, but the NCO buttons were smaller."


I've done some more digging in places like axishistory.com and this site...

http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Ranks ... ed_WW2.htm

...and every one says Gefreiter is not a non-commissioned officer.

Additionally, Lance Corporal is not a non-commissioned rank in today's militaries.

Cheers, Neilster
Cheers, Neilster
User avatar
wodin
Posts: 10709
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 3:13 am
Location: England
Contact:

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by wodin »

Cool..as I said my first thought was No until I came across this website and I think another one aswell..
Zorch
Posts: 7087
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:21 pm

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by Zorch »

Zorch
Posts: 7087
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:21 pm

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by Zorch »

While we're on the subject of Hitler in WWI...What's the verdict on this photo - is it real or fake?
Last I heard it was believed to be fake.

Image
Attachments
hitler1914.jpg
hitler1914.jpg (118.62 KiB) Viewed 485 times
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Zorch

While we're on the subject of Hitler in WWI...What's the verdict on this photo - is it real or fake?
Last I heard it was believed to be fake.

Image
warspite1

No, its definitely a photo, I mean just look at it.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Zorch
Posts: 7087
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:21 pm

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by Zorch »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Zorch

While we're on the subject of Hitler in WWI...What's the verdict on this photo - is it real or fake?
Last I heard it was believed to be fake.

Image
warspite1

No, its definitely a photo, I mean just look at it.
It was allegedly taken August 2, 1914, but may be a later Nazi forgery.
User avatar
Orm
Posts: 27751
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 7:53 pm
Location: Sweden

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by Orm »

ORIGINAL: Zorch

While we're on the subject of Hitler in WWI...What's the verdict on this photo - is it real or fake?
Last I heard it was believed to be fake.

Image
I wouldn't be surprised if the final verdict is that it is a fake.
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
User avatar
wings7
Posts: 4586
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:59 am
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by wings7 »

ORIGINAL: Zorch

While we're on the subject of Hitler in WWI...What's the verdict on this photo - is it real or fake?
Last I heard it was believed to be fake.

Image

It was one of the first biographical photos in saw in the late 1960's...
Please come and join and befriend me at the great Steam portal! There are quite a few Matrix/Slitherine players on Steam! My member page: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197988402427
Kuokkanen
Posts: 3692
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:16 pm

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by Kuokkanen »

ORIGINAL: wodin

There is no Private First Class rank in the German Army.
Yes there is. Or used to be.
You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars
User avatar
demyansk
Posts: 2871
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:55 pm

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by demyansk »

I have studied this for over 40 years. Recently, it has come to light that this picture might be a forgery. Of course we will never know for sure. However, I have seen videotape of this exact moment and it does correspond with this picture in 1914. The individual in the film from far away does look like a young Hitler. The film was taken on the podium, near the lion at the Feldernahalle.

It's a tough call on this one but I believe it's genuine. Just my opinion.
User avatar
Orm
Posts: 27751
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 7:53 pm
Location: Sweden

RE: Hitler and the First World War

Post by Orm »

ORIGINAL: demjansk

I have studied this for over 40 years. Recently, it has come to light that this picture might be a forgery. Of course we will never know for sure. However, I have seen videotape of this exact moment and it does correspond with this picture in 1914. The individual in the film from far away does look like a young Hitler. The film was taken on the podium, near the lion at the Feldernahalle.

It's a tough call on this one but I believe it's genuine. Just my opinion.
You convinced me.
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”