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Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/14/2016 8:42:34 AM   
rmonical

 

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Amazingly, May had 4 clear turns in a row so I could hammer on Leningrad with multiple attacks each turn.
My expectation is that the city would fall to the red Army masses. No so.
The last turn's results are illustrative. Notice that there is barely any decrease in defensive strength after the last 3 attacks following the loss of the remaining fortification.
If the Finns had fresh divisions to feed in, or if there were some German divisions available, I see no way Leningrad would ever fall to a frontal assault.

Fortunately, I broke through on the Janisjarvi line, so the situation has a resolution. But if there were just a few German divisions the city would not fall without the tedious flanking move through Pavlovo. Knowing what I know now, I would have started with that. I'm not sure there is any historical urban combat example with such massive forces involved. I'm also not sure that the current heavy urban defense modifier is justified. This may be the first time such a stark example has come up.




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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/14/2016 2:54:50 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

I'm not sure there is any historical urban combat example with such massive forces involved.


Stalingrad? Berlin? Just off the top of my head.

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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/14/2016 2:57:48 PM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Stalingrad? Berlin? Just off the top of my head.


Not even close.

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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/14/2016 3:07:10 PM   
EwaldvonKleist

 

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Berlin
According to wikipedia 2,5mio soviets vs 800000 germans. Today it is hard to estimate how many people fought on the Berlin hexagons in real life but I 70 000 germans vs 300 000 soviets is not unrealistic IMO.
Especially cities allow a higher soldier density I think, so I don't see the problem.

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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/14/2016 3:18:31 PM   
rmonical

 

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The first defensive preparations at the outskirts of Berlin were made on 20 March, under the newly appointed commander of Army Group Vistula, General Gotthard Heinrici. Before the main battle in Berlin commenced, the Red Army encircled the city after successful battles of the Seelow Heights and Halbe. During 20 April 1945, the 1st Belorussian Front led by Marshal Georgy Zhukov started shelling Berlin's city centre, while Marshal Ivan Konev's 1st Ukrainian Front had pushed from the south through the last formations of Army Group Centre. The German defences were mainly led by Helmuth Weidling. The units consisted of several depleted and disorganised Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS divisions, along with poorly trained Volkssturm and Hitler Youth members. Within the next few days, the Red Army reached the city centre where close-quarters combat raged.

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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/14/2016 3:27:16 PM   
loki100


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laying aside the realism debate, I had someone do this to me. He left about 15 German divisions, plus the Finns the defend Leningrad and the Neva line.

I did a few turns of very well prepared attacks (gds+sappers and lots of artillery divisions) mainly in the hope of triggering one of those extreme results the combat engine can produce.

Gave up and screened it till the end of the game with a line of very weak rifle divisions. I reckon I had less units guarding the region than the German player had committed to its defense. he had no armour there so in the unlikely case he attacked and broke out I could easily rail units in to restore the front.

You don't need Leningrad or the Finns out of the war to trigger the end game surrender (just means you need to take a few more VP cities in Germany). Any German player who trades off divisions at worse than 1-1 after 1943 is creating trouble for themselves.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 9/14/2016 3:29:00 PM >


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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/14/2016 3:34:49 PM   
EwaldvonKleist

 

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Is it possible to defend a city hex with around 70 000 men and attack it with 250-350k men, from the point of view of unit density?
I think yes. The numbers fit in relation to the area covered.

In your quote, it is said "several depleted units" (=more than 3 units like stacking limits in WITE)+Volkssturm+Hitler Youth. Sounds like close to 50-70k men for me. Disorganized, poorly supplied etc. but numerous.

The only difference between real world and ingame is that real life generals decided against preparing a massive city/stronghold defense with good units.. But it was possible, so it should be possible in WITE too.

Had germans chosen to defend berlin proper they could have done so.

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 9/14/2016 3:37:03 PM >

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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/14/2016 3:47:50 PM   
rmonical

 

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I do not disagree. My observation is that I do not think there is a historical situation where a single contested 10KM square urban box was subjected to relentless attack for 30 days (with a new attack every two days with varying amounts of relatively fresh troops). Half of the attacks are with almost 6000 artillery tubes - that alone is unique.

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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/14/2016 3:48:33 PM   
Stelteck

 

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The siege of Königsberg is quite close as urban assaut, near the end of the war. The city fortress hold 4 months.
There were 5 divisions in defense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_K%C3%B6nigsberg

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 9/14/2016 3:50:28 PM >

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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/14/2016 4:04:17 PM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

The siege of Königsberg is quite close as urban assaut, near the end of the war. The city fortress hold 4 months.
There were 5 divisions in defense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_K%C3%B6nigsberg

My Leningrad example is not analogous. Konigsberg fell after a 3 day assault. It was under siege for several months. Once I surround Leningrad, this issue will no longer be in doubt.

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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/14/2016 9:00:05 PM   
EwaldvonKleist

 

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I agree that a siege must not be confused with a real attack.
But: You have a forces ratio of not greater than 5-6 in men. This is something an entrenched army in a city can defend against.
Yes you replaced your forces between the attack but you never get over the ratio which would overwhelm the defenders.
After two weeks or so they should have lost enough equipment and should be tired enough so they can't hold their position anymore. The CV of the finnish units already dropped from fight 1 to 4 by a good amount.

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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/14/2016 9:53:04 PM   
Pelton


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It should fall in 1 or 2 turns or your doing something very very wrong.

Do a HQBU before the assault and that will magicly sovle all your problems - learned that from WitW.



< Message edited by Pelton -- 9/15/2016 11:54:44 AM >


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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/15/2016 4:32:14 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

It should fall in 1 or 2 turns or your doing something very very wrong.

Do a HQBU before the assault and that will magicly sovle are your problems - learned that from WitW.





but Pelton ... HQBU is not in WiTW (as you well know) so its hard to see how this can be true?

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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/15/2016 7:55:57 AM   
Red Lancer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

It should fall in 1 or 2 turns or your doing something very very wrong.

Do a HQBU before the assault and that will magicly sovle are your problems - learned that from WitW.





but Pelton ... HQBU is not in WiTW (as you well know) so its hard to see how this can be true?

quote:

but Pelton ... HQBU is not in WiTW (as you well know) so its hard to see how this can be true?


It is true that WitW does not have HQBU but WitW does teach you the importance of good supply when attacking. I do get confused sometimes when people confuse the different logistic systems. For example the Bozo Flying Circus exploit cannot map directly to WitW as HQs only handle their own supply and you fly freight not fuel.

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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/15/2016 11:54:51 AM   
Pelton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

It should fall in 1 or 2 turns or your doing something very very wrong.

Do a HQBU before the assault and that will magicly sovle are your problems - learned that from WitW.





but Pelton ... HQBU is not in WiTW (as you well know) so its hard to see how this can be true?

quote:

but Pelton ... HQBU is not in WiTW (as you well know) so its hard to see how this can be true?


It is true that WitW does not have HQBU but WitW does teach you the importance of good supply when attacking. I do get confused sometimes when people confuse the different logistic systems. For example the Bozo Flying Circus exploit cannot map directly to WitW as HQs only handle their own supply and you fly freight not fuel.


+1

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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/15/2016 5:26:11 PM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

It is true that WitW does not have HQBU but WitW does teach you the importance of good supply when attacking. I do get confused sometimes when people confuse the different logistic systems. For example the Bozo Flying Circus exploit cannot map directly to WitW as HQs only handle their own supply and you fly freight not fuel.


The attacking units are sitting on the rail or within one hex. So what I am reading is that the AI does not deliver enough supplies to these units as a normal part of the logistics phase? An HQBU is required? Which, in the case of Lenningrad front requires 124 AP for all 4 armies involved.

< Message edited by rmonical -- 9/15/2016 5:29:25 PM >

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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/21/2016 1:29:27 PM   
Farfarer

 

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Good supply - yes, whether HQBU or natural. 6 to 9 Infantry Corps depending on how many hexes you have next to the target hex, each Corps with 1 Heavy SU and 2 Sappers (best type you have depending on the date), plus massed Long Range Artillery under a paratroop HQ assigned to the same Army or Front most likely, a host of Mobile Units in Reserve Mode, bombing in advance to cause disruption, tactical air support...job done.
However, determine whether Leningrad's population will recover enough before war's end to pay you back for the losses before bothering to attack.

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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/24/2016 4:17:49 AM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer
However, determine whether Leningrad's population will recover enough before war's end to pay you back for the losses before bothering to attack.

I think Leningrad is a requirement for the victory conditions irrespective of population loss. And also to force the Finns to surrender.

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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/24/2016 1:40:51 PM   
Pelton


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You only need a single German Corp to drop about any hex not sure what that equals Russian.

3 front line infantry divisions loaded with pioneers and 1 mech division in reserve which will RR 100% of the time after HQBU + normal 12 Art and 3 poineers siege Model.

Hit hex with 2 air strikes and 300/300 air support for attack

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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/24/2016 3:03:47 PM   
chaos45

 

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No HQBU for soviets so never 100% RR.....also on the attack for Soviets seemed better to just rotate through units on the offensive than worry about reserves to help.

IMO for soviets if the germans stay close you can basically do a 3 tier offensive if you have your forces set up right. Initial offensive with the rifle corps at the front they have massive CV and loaded with sappers plus artillery in army HQ...artillery BDE/division in direct support and airstrikes virtually no defense can stop that attack esp later 43 on.

Once the rifle corps break the frontline next you send in the cav corps to widen the breach/further weaken the German units u caused to retreat as shock armies loaded with cav corps will easily keep pushing the German units back- sappers/heavy tanks for cav corps attached SU.

Once the Cav corps have exploited as much as possible and moved into positions to secure the shoulders of the breach, then you pour in your tank and mech corps to finish smashing the german defense in detail and rout any german units you can to prevent the Germans from effectively counterattacking/sealing breach....not to mention each time u push german units back you can then pound them with airstrikes again which makes them easily beaten by hasty attacks after the first attack or two.

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RE: Frontal Assault against heavy urban - 9/25/2016 2:06:07 AM   
Pelton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

No HQBU for soviets so never 100% RR.....also on the attack for Soviets seemed better to just rotate through units on the offensive than worry about reserves to help.

IMO for soviets if the germans stay close you can basically do a 3 tier offensive if you have your forces set up right. Initial offensive with the rifle corps at the front they have massive CV and loaded with sappers plus artillery in army HQ...artillery BDE/division in direct support and airstrikes virtually no defense can stop that attack esp later 43 on.

Once the rifle corps break the frontline next you send in the cav corps to widen the breach/further weaken the German units u caused to retreat as shock armies loaded with cav corps will easily keep pushing the German units back- sappers/heavy tanks for cav corps attached SU.

Once the Cav corps have exploited as much as possible and moved into positions to secure the shoulders of the breach, then you pour in your tank and mech corps to finish smashing the german defense in detail and rout any german units you can to prevent the Germans from effectively counterattacking/sealing breach....not to mention each time u push german units back you can then pound them with airstrikes again which makes them easily beaten by hasty attacks after the first attack or two.


the problem is bro no one thinks like you.

No one thinks about trucks until after the fact.

Thanks for serving

I am ready for 2.0 per your info thanks bro






< Message edited by Pelton -- 9/25/2016 2:11:43 AM >


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Soviet Attack Echelon - 9/25/2016 2:55:06 AM   
Farfarer

 

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As Chaos45 described, yes that is how it is done when you are Red on the offense. I have tried maintaining powerful "cut off and isolate" Axis mech/arm forces that lure these Soviet penetrations to their deaths, with reasonable, but not war-winning success. If you know how the stacking/unit number thing works you can hide everything from Recon. Your Infantry is hard wired to fail mid to late game, and you can't recycle ( refit ) the arm/mech (such as the SS Pz Divs and GD at 100 plus CV throughout 1944) to keep their edge. There is too much demand of course. It is enjoyable, if a bit 'sad' trying though.
Someone ( prescient ) posted long ago that as Axis, the moment you step off the line June 1941, you are playing for a Marginal victory in May 1945 with nothing to show for a few hundred turns of effort.

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RE: Soviet Attack Echelon - 9/25/2016 7:27:26 AM   
Stelteck

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer
If you know how the stacking/unit number thing works you can hide everything from Recon.


Could we have more information on this please

I know this from manual :

For non-air base units, air reconnaissance can raise detection levels up to a maximum of four as follows:
Maximum Detection level 1: Non-Air base units located in non-clear terrain further then 3 hexes from supplied enemy units.
Maximum Detection level 2: Non air base units located in non-clear terrain and not adjacent to enemy units.
Maximum Detection level 4: Non-air base units located in clear terrain.

But the impact for hidding stacks of units is not clear.


< Message edited by Stelteck -- 9/25/2016 7:57:03 AM >

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RE: Soviet Attack Echelon - 9/25/2016 8:46:46 AM   
821Bobo


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quote:

Could we have more information on this please


Every unit has database number. If you hover with mouse over any on map unit in the pop-up among others will be the db number - UNIT #123. In every stack, counter with the highest number is always on top.
All you need to do is placing 2 Panzer/Mot. divisions in hex and find some other counter with higher db# and place it in that hex. Enemy will see only the top one counter. However if you have decent detection this can be countered to some extend with the highlight Armor/Mech/Mot. units - ctrl+3.

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RE: Soviet Attack Echelon - 9/25/2016 7:42:19 PM   
Stelteck

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

quote:

Could we have more information on this please


Every unit has database number. If you hover with mouse over any on map unit in the pop-up among others will be the db number - UNIT #123. In every stack, counter with the highest number is always on top.
All you need to do is placing 2 Panzer/Mot. divisions in hex and find some other counter with higher db# and place it in that hex. Enemy will see only the top one counter. However if you have decent detection this can be countered to some extend with the highlight Armor/Mech/Mot. units - ctrl+3.


Thank you for the explanation. but ..... . It looks like an exploit to me, to be able to hide units using their database number, isn't it ?

Did developpers aware of this ? Having the top CV unit at top would be a better solution. Or the more mecanized as it is more difficult to hide vehicule than men.


< Message edited by Stelteck -- 9/25/2016 7:43:59 PM >

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RE: Soviet Attack Echelon - 9/25/2016 8:14:45 PM   
821Bobo


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Well, you can literally fly infinite recon missions(especially Axis) therefore I think it is legitimate tactics. It won't work in clear terrain agains opponent that is not complete ignorant and uses the highlight feature.
In RL there were many cases when recon failed to spot buildups.

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RE: Soviet Attack Echelon - 9/25/2016 8:30:41 PM   
Stelteck

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

Well, you can literally fly infinite recon missions(especially Axis) therefore I think it is legitimate tactics. It won't work in clear terrain agains opponent that is not complete ignorant and uses the highlight feature.
In RL there were many cases when recon failed to spot buildups.


You are right the current recon is maybe a too effective. It is only the database ID thing that feel not right.

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