Conquest hex control

[Jagdtiger14]

In our (Brian and I) game (AAR "Groundhog Day") Germany conquered Denmark. CW was able to land in northern Jutland, took Fredrichshaven and moved south to take every hex of Jutland. Germany controls the eastern Islands including Copenhagen. CW also had ZOC on every hex in Jutland save one. In that one hex CW had a FTR2 based in it.

When the conquest phase came up for Denmark, the hex outside of ZOC's with the FTR2 in it came up German flagged. MWiF then informed that the CW FTR2 had been over-run and needed to be rebased.

There are two problems here that perhaps Brian can chime in with if he wishes:
1. The Jutland hex in question should not have become German controlled due to CW having moved through it.
2. The hex also should not have become German controlled due to a CW unit occupying it.

I'm wondering if this is a bug, or just a misunderstanding of the conquest rule?

And this reminds me as an aside...and I don't want to detract from the very important issue above, but the MWiF map incorrectly has Bornholm Island as Swedish.

[Centuur]

1. True, if you look at RAW. However: this would mean that the reversion rule (which takes place in the peace step) will have to be coded too. That would mean that during the peace step, any time a major power controls a hex that might be given back to the minor or major power which originally controlled the hex, the program would need to ask if the controlling player wants to give that hex back. And that's pretty annoying since the question needs to be asked on a hex by hex bases (a computer is pretty stupid). The decision was made not to code this, but instead always return the hex to the original owner of the hex, until that country has been conquered.

However:

2. An aircraft unit in a hex is enough to prevent that hex from becoming controlled by the conquerer. So that's a bug. Can you post a gamesave in here from the autosave just before conquest? Thanks.

[brian brian]

There are two bugs here The aircraft unit should hold control of the hex during Conquest, that is clear in the rules.

The second bug is not so obvious at first. WiF recongnizes two types of hex control - Major Power's and a minor country itself. So the hexes of Denmark all start out in Danish control even upon alignment to the CW, until an Axis unit takes some. If a CW (not Danish) unit takes one back from the Axis, it becomes a CW hex, not a Danish hex. The British Army has moved in and set up it's supply lines to the front in southern Denmark and is hardly going to stand by while the local Danish officials declare, well, Copenhagen raised the white flag so we thought we should bring in some battalions of German infantry to maintain order.

In this case, the Reversion step would not even be reached before the Conquest step.

It would be a bit of work to code in the concept of Danish hexes, true. But ultimately all hex control concepts and the Reversion rule itself need to be coded. WiF is a multi-player game designed for one winner, not one 'side' to win. And in such games Reversion can become an important rule even outside of this situation, which falls outside of Reversion anyway.

[Centuur]

True. But I let Steve comment on this one.

[paulderynck]

At any rate your game is fixable with beta tools if you want to post a save.

[Jagdtiger14]

Already fixed. Changing/correcting hex control is not a problem, but MWiF will still force the unit to be over-run regardless. Ronnie was kind enough to correct the situation. I will see about posting a save.

[Orm]

1. The Jutland hex in question should not have become German controlled due to CW having moved through it.
2. The hex also should not have become German controlled due to a CW unit occupying it.

I read the rule I cut in below as all hexes, except the exception explicitly mentioned, is change to the control of the conquering major power. So, in my humble opinion, point two is a bug while point one is not. The fact that a CW unit has moved through a hex in a minor country before conquest does not change anything. The hex will, upon conquest, change to German control.


RAC: 13.7.1 Conquest
....
Now change the control of the conquered home country. Every one of its hexes occupied by a land or aircraft
unit (most combat factors if more than one), or in the uncontested (by any other major power) ZoC of a land unit,
becomes controlled by that unit’s controlling major power; unless already controlled by another major power on the
same side. All other hexes in the home country become controlled by the conquering major power. All other
territory the conquered major power or minor country controls remains under its control.

[Orm]

And this reminds me as an aside...and I don't want to detract from the very important issue above, but the MWiF map incorrectly has Bornholm Island as Swedish.

This has been discussed before and here is the answer by Froonp.

"First, please remember this : when the maps for MWiF were worked on, it was already decided to keep the European part of te WiF FE map as it was, so we had to do with that. Scandinavia was modified because being just at the edge of the map it had some things misplaced for game purposes (surch as Bergen), but not more than that. "

"This island could have been drawn more to the south of where it is, but placing it in the hex to the south would be wrong too. So we did not change it, according to what is said above."


Note that I was lazy so this is actually from the Fatal Alliances: The Great War map.

[brian brian]

Also read the hex control rule, 2.5 -

Note that even though major powers may control minor countries (see 9.8 & 13.7.1), it is the minors themselves that control hexes in that minor. However, hexes taken from an enemy major power (or its controlled minors) are controlled by the major power taking them regardless of whether those hexes are taken by units of the major power or its controlled minors, unless the major powers are not at war with each other (in which case the hexes are controlled by the minor country taking them).

[Orm]

I've read the rule 2.5 Control before posting and now I read it again. And it only strengthened my opinion.

Note the following wording.

----
2.5 Control
....
Changing control
Control of a hex changes when:
....
an island, territory, minor country or major power is conquered (see 13.7.1)
----

To me this tells me that when a minor country is conquered control changes according to rule 13.7.1 that I quoted above. So CW needs a land unit, or aircraft, or uncontested ZOC, in a hex to gain control. All other hexes would go to Germany. This regardless where the CW units been in Denmark before conquest.

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: Orm

I've read the rule 2.5 Control before posting and now I read it again. And it only strengthened my opinion.

Note the following wording.

----
2.5 Control
....
Changing control
Control of a hex changes when:
....
an island, territory, minor country or major power is conquered (see 13.7.1)
----

To me this tells me that when a minor country is conquered control changes according to rule 13.7.1 that I quoted above. So CW needs a land unit, or aircraft, or uncontested ZOC, in a hex to gain control. All other hexes would go to Germany. This regardless where the CW units been in Denmark before conquest.

I agree with Orm. The fact that the CW controls the Danish hex does not stop the Germans from acquiring control when Germany is conquered.

[brian brian]

I disagree. WiF recognizes Danish hexes, and CW hexes.

"However, hexes taken from an enemy major power (or its controlled minors) are controlled by the major power taking them regardless"

If a CW unit takes a hex in Denmark away from Germany, it is a CW hex that doesn't change upon conquest. Any hexes the Germans never took do change unless occupied by land/air/ZoC. Even that can get a tad dodgy in places. But if your army takes territory from the enemy it is hardly going to give it back to the enemy; WiF gets this right. Occasionally there are political concerns for things like French colonies, but not for territory that was neutral in 1939.

[Courtenay]

Here is the relevant rule:

Now change the control of the conquered home country. Every one of its hexes occupied by a land or aircraft unit (most combat factors if more than one), or in the uncontested (by any other major power) ZOC of a land unit, becomes controlled by that unit’s controlling major power; unless already controlled by another major power on the same side. All other hexes in the home country become controlled by the conquering major power. All other territory the conquered major power or minor country controls remains under its control.

The key word is "its" in the second sentence. I hold that a it means all the hexes in that country, no matter who owns it. This is confirmed by the three exclusionary clauses that follow: exclude hexes that are occupied by any land or air unit, exclude hexes in the uncontested (by any other major power) ZOC of land unit, and, most importantly, exclude hexes controlled by a major power on your side. Hexes controlled by a major power on the other side are explicitly not excluded. If ADG had wanted to exclude such hexes, it could have simply omitted the four words "on the same side". Since ADG found it necessary to include those words, that means that hexes controlled by major powers on the other side are included in the list of hexes that change control.

[brian brian]

Hexes taken from the enemy side by a Major Power are no longer "its" - the minor does not control them any more. "It" is now the controlling MP for those hexes. "Its" is the key word, I agree. It implies possession.

Now after all these years, you can also finally read a public version of the new rules, where this situation is cleaned up considerably, in a way that is realistic, which should be a part of a complex rules question. We all know the British Army nor their C-I-C would meekly give those hexes back.

[paulderynck]

I agree with Orm and Courtenay. It's Denmark that is getting conquered and its all the hexes in Denmark (regardless of who currently controls them) that are tested to see if any are kept by major powers that are on the same side that Denmark was on. The criteria to keep those hexes are fully described.

But in this case the one hex that changed to German control should not have changed because the presence of the CW aircraft should have kept it a CW hex.

As far as fixing the file, beta tools can not only change the hex control, they can put the aircraft back where it was and re-org it, if it was not disorganized.

[brian brian]

Riddle me this - why would hexes controlled by 'another Major Power' on the conquered country's side not change control? It just says 'controlled' - the other Major Power on the side doesn't even need units to be present. Only the aligning Major Power falls asleep at the switch and let's these go?

Here is a close to historical historical example. Let's say Germany invades Norway and the CW aligns it. The French send troops to Bergen and advance forward to contact the Germans, crushing a German division and continuing to advance. The British do the same from Trondheim, also taking hexes back from Germany. Then when Oslo falls, the French hexes taken from Ge remain French but the similar CW ones do not?

Yes, I know, the Norwegian hexes the Brits or French never took would undergo the unit/ZoC test, as I said even that gets dodgy at times.

And why explicitly give such hexes to the Major Power taking them in 2.5 ?

As for what ADG intended, I don't think this one has ever been in the FAQ. But the desired intent can be clearly seen in RaW 8.102 on the ADG site.


Edit to add: remember, there are minor hexes, and Major Power hexes. The 'another Major Power' could even refer to the aligning Major Power. Major Powers entering an unconquered minor are only explicitly given hexes they take from the other side. The process in the conquest rule applies to the Minor's hexes - "its" - and 'another Major Power' is separate.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Riddle me this - why would hexes controlled by 'another Major Power' on the conquered country's side not change control?

They would and they do, unless occupied or in the undisputed ZoC of a major power. In your Norway example a hex taken back by the French and now occupied by a CW unit would stay French controlled. And vice versa. A hex either one took back that is neither occupied by, nor in the undisputed ZoC of, either the CW or French become German controlled. AAMOF two empty hexes, one taken back by the CW and one taken back by the French but both in the ZoC of both CW and French units - becomes German controlled!

That's what Courtenay's RAW7 quote says and that's what RAW8 says.

ORIGINAL: brian brian
And why explicitly give such hexes to the Major Power taking them in 2.5 ?

Because this is the "Effects of Conquest" rule and it is one of the cases listed in 2.5 that cause hex control to change. You cite the first bullet of 2.5 while ignoring the second in RAW7 or the third in RAW8 (your choice).

[brian brian]

But that interpretation is throwing out the concept of a minor controlling hexes as a separate concept. The new conquest rule also starts with "It loses control of..." Just as RaW7 uses "its". As soon as a Major Power takes a hex away from another Major Power, the MP controls that hex, no ifs ands or buts. On conquest, the conquered country only loses control of hexes "it" still controls. The rule quoted anove is the new one I believe and as I read it, "already controlled by another Major Power" doesn't even require the presence of units; they are 'already' controlled before this step, and refers to all Major Powers on that side including the aligning power. And neither does RaW7, because only "its" hexes are changing, the ones the minor still controls.

To me this rule has always been designed to handle the surrender of Italy, and it works perfectly for that. The Germans had to plan and execute a major operation to reinforce and occupy northern Italy to hold on to it. They chose no less a leader than Rommel to be in charge.

When the Allies fight their way into a minor country which later surrenders, things would be different, and the way I am suggesting to read the rule works for that. The new 8 rules make it even more clear to a slightly muddy situation in 7 due to the use of' 'all hexes' but I think the intent was always there. There is little other need for creating this concept of Minor control in opposition to MP control on the same side.

[Centuur]

I'm not a native English speaker, but I think the rule can be interpretated in two different ways.

However, if one looks at it from a historical point of view, I side with Paul on this issue.

Consider this for the moment. Denmark is at war with Germany and fights against the attacker. The CW decides to send over troops to assist the Danish forces. The CW makes sure the Germans need to withdraw their troops. So far so good. Why would the British not use the Danish civil services already in place? Wouldn't the Danish population be very angry with the British if they would start to act as an occupation force, with the Danish army still fighting on?

Did the French and British take over political control of those cities in Belgium they entered in may 1940? No, they didn't. The same happened in Greece, where the British didn't take over control of the civil services on Crete or in the Peleponesses where they had troops on the ground.

So I side with Paul, since I consider conquest of a country the same as the total collapse of the political and civil service system, due to the fall of the central government and the surrender of all defending forces of the country which gets conquered. The take over of hexes, even behind enemy lines, is due to the chaos and lack of occupation or policing forces (no ZOC) of the defending side in such area's.

[brian brian]

No I hardly think a country attacked by the Axis would just look at an Allied country coming to help them as some sort of occupying force. Gee, the Germans attacked us while Neutral (and fire-bombed our largest city) and now those evil British came to fight for us so we had better request some German troops come protect us from the British Army back here behind their front? Preposterous. Though that would be a bit different if it were an Axis MP or far, far different if it were the USSR involved. But even if it were Germany intervening in a Portugal attacked by the CW I doubt Portugese behind the German lines would say similar. The rule has to cover all possible game situations though, not just Good Guy/Bad Guy examples.

It is hard to tell which rules concept takes precedence. The concept of minors controlling their hexes and only those hexes changing hands, or the hard-wired words of "all hexes". The sections that explain which hexes change control are only explaining WHEN hexes COULD change control. "Its" still implies, to me, possession of hexes, not simply which hexes fall inside the geographical borders.