Why flak doesn't fire back?

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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MrBlizzard
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Why flak doesn't fire back?

Post by MrBlizzard »

Can anybody help me understand why flak doesn't fire back to soviet planes?
11th Pzdiv and Das Reich, object of the planes attack, have some organic flak (26 AA guns or SP) and a SP company flak attached to D.R.
But in the report no AA appears and no planes hits...
Thanks for any clue.



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RE: Why flak doesn't fire back?

Post by MrBlizzard »

This is a pic of one of the two units bombed


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RE: Why flak doesn't fire back?

Post by morvael »

With high fatigue and low ammo the flak was so weak it wasn't recorded, units have to have some actual flak power to be listed.
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RE: Why flak doesn't fire back?

Post by MrBlizzard »

Thanks!
These two units were at more than 75% (!) fatigue before soviet attack , and 77-79% ammo.
so this should be the reason they didn't fire (maybe more fatigue issue than ammo)
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RE: Why flak doesn't fire back?

Post by morvael »

I guess so, fatigue reduced flak power to such low level it was negligible.
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RE: Why flak doesn't fire back?

Post by MrBlizzard »

Can you have a look also at this please? [:)]
it's just a turn before

the SP flak company attached to Das Reich doesn't fire again to enemy planes;
even if it has full ammo and low fatigue



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also for other bombings in picture same problem; for instance 5/59 flak company attached to 16th MotDiv
didn't fire too with full ammo and low fatigue

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RE: Why flak doesn't fire back?

Post by morvael »

I checked a similar situation and it seems planes fly too high for the low ceiling flak to fire.
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RE: Why flak doesn't fire back?

Post by MrBlizzard »

Yeah I too thought something like that!

That's should be the reason because 20mm flak and 20mm quad flak never never fire at attacking planes

I check all 21 soviet air bombing in a turn and 20mm never fired like the example in picture.

If we have tactical bombers like Il-2 that release at low altitude (like in these few examples) 20mm flak should fire back IMHO

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Edit: maybe this issue it's not so simple to solve if you have a mix of bombers, some level bombers Flying higher and some tactical bombers Flying lower;
'cause light flak should fire only to tactical ones
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RE: Why flak doesn't fire back?

Post by morvael »

Tactical bombers already suffer extreme flak losses, so I think it's better not to change anything related to AA. It's still quite a black box to me.
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RE: Why flak doesn't fire back?

Post by Aditia »

You also need to think about dispersion, this is a division/brigade spread around a 100 square miles.So not all guns should be brought to bear on a flight of Tac Bombers attacking a portion of the unit's frontage.

With 20mm systems being relatively mobile I can imagine them being deployed more at the front as direct fire support weapons (they do fire in ground combat right?) as opposed to being deployed in anti-air positions.



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RE: Why flak doesn't fire back?

Post by MrBlizzard »

ORIGINAL: Aditia

You also need to think about dispersion, this is a division/brigade spread around a 100 square miles.So not all guns should be brought to bear on a flight of Tac Bombers attacking a portion of the unit's frontage.

With 20mm systems being relatively mobile I can imagine them being deployed more at the front as direct fire support weapons (they do fire in ground combat right?) as opposed to being deployed in anti-air positions.

agree 100%, they were a sort of double purpose guns ; maybe more towards support infantry for single 20mm , more towards AA for 20mm quad-guns


Tactical bombers already suffer extreme flak losses, so I think it's better not to change anything related to AA. It's still quite a black box to me.
yeah, I understand you, it would raise also a big balancement issue if you change something;
if air losses are now already balanced (with probably more losses caused by heavy and mid flak and no losses from light flak)
it's just a pity light AA battalions are useless and panzer spearhead can't defend themselves with organic flak [:(]


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RE: Why flak doesn't fire back?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: morvael

Tactical bombers already suffer extreme flak losses, so I think it's better not to change anything related to AA. It's still quite a black box to me.

If your working on 2.0 - this was an issue with WitW.

AA fire was in general in effective and could be easly gamed from game.

I would simply junk it or send to reserves as it simply used up supplies.

This is what I take from this as a German or Russian player.

low level AA units are useless so junk the SU's if you can In a few cases they might be helpful but in long run a ball and chain.
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RE: Why flak doesn't fire back?

Post by MrBlizzard »

So it seems there are 3 kinds of German support units with only 20mm flak in TOE:
- SP flak company
- LW motorized flak battalion
- SP light flak battalion

Provided they are useless in AA role they could only be used in infantry support role.
SP Company I doubt are of any utilty in this role because of their tiny dimension (just 10 sdkfz). They're the first candidate to be disbanded to gain the veichles and the sdkfz to fill panzer TOE when they upgrade in april 1942.

Edit : for the other two kinds of SU , provided there's a limit in SU number that can join a battle, it seems to me they also are of scarce utility.
They could be used to fill the gap in Korps HQ with few SU.



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RE: Why flak doesn't fire back?

Post by 56ajax »

If these support units rarely fire, then disband them, and if this is not possible then set their TOE to 20%?
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RE: Why flak doesn't fire back?

Post by No idea »

At least the 20mm cannon units should be helpful against infantry. They were used to support infantry attacks many times. Just as the 88s were used against tanks, and not just as AAA. Does anybody know if 20mms are used in land attacks? Iirc morvael did some tests a few months ago with the 88s to see if they fired against land targets and found that they werent much used, and only in defence.
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RE: Why flak doesn't fire back?

Post by Aditia »

guns like those should be most effective in defense.
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RE: Why flak doesn't fire back?

Post by Icier »

I found them completely useless even in defense & disbanded the lot. [:o]
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