China

[Revthought]

I'm curious about where, in general, other Allied players--I won't say AFB because given time I would be just as happy to play the Japanese--choose to defend in China, particularly when your opponent applies a lot of pressure their.

There is no right answer, ofc. And I'm not soliciting advice. I'd just like to have a measure of my choices against what other people in similar situations in China do.

[PaxMondo]

For the allies, its pretty simple. Retreat into 3x terrain, defense in depth. Your goal is to tie up IJ assets until your liberate Burma and open the Burma road. Kunming and Chungking are your two key bases. This means you will likely need to hold until mid-43. that's a long time.

Losing control of china to the IJ is pretty bad as it relieves a LARGE number of units for other assignments. Conceivably, the IJ could take India or SOV particularly if the player is ignoring VP's (don't garrison). Knocking SOV out along with CHI alleviates a LOT of pressure on IJ in the end game. Taking India, or most of it, is a HUGE economic boost that will also create a huge difficulty for the allied player (IJ will be able to build and support +25,000 AC in '45).

This theatre is well balanced. Plenty of AAR's where allies lose or hold china.


Good Luck.

[Lokasenna]

I don't think Japan can knock out the Soviets. The disparity in unit quality is just too great.

Also, it's impossible to hold China against a concerted Japanese effort. If Japan is invading India and Australia, then it's not a concerted effort. Those units are needed to completely break China when it still matters (1942).

[rustysi]

I haven't played form the Allied side as yet, but I have some ideas for China as well. Don't know if they'll work, but... What Pax said about terrain and depth head the list. In addition I think it would be relatively easy to infiltrate Japans' lines with some 'throw away' units to keep his LOC threatened. By 'throw away' units I'm talking about units that are the 'free' rebuilds of destroyed units. You get a 1/3 strength unit for nothing. Push them as far and wide as possible to interfere with his supply lines. When they die they'll be reborn. Rinse and repeat. Also get the 'Hump' up and running as fast as possible. Obliviously I've never tried it and of course the real way to know is in PBEM, so... I've no doubt others have done the same, so they may chime in and tell you of their results. Most of what I hear about defending China is not good though.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I haven't played form the Allied side as yet, but I have some ideas for China as well. Don't know if they'll work, but... What Pax said about terrain and depth head the list. In addition I think it would be relatively easy to infiltrate Japans' lines with some 'throw away' units to keep his LOC threatened. By 'throw away' units I'm talking about units that are the 'free' rebuilds of destroyed units. You get a 1/3 strength unit for nothing. Push them as far and wide as possible to interfere with his supply lines. When they die they'll be reborn. Rinse and repeat. Also get the 'Hump' up and running as fast as possible. Obliviously I've never tried it and of course the real way to know is in PBEM, so... I've no doubt others have done the same, so they may chime in and tell you of their results. Most of what I hear about defending China is not good though.

The resurrected units are weak, but more importantly they come back at Chungking, a long way from any supply line cutting. By the time they re-appear Chinese units usually have to walk across the countryside to get anywhere. The roads and rails are closed. There's just no time. And if they're caught by any IJA shooter pretty much at all, they die again. They have no supply, and no support devices. They are very vulnerable to being bombed for practice.

The Hump is a good idea and every Allied player does it as soon as he can. But you have no transport planes to speak of for at least six months. Japan starts flush with transports. The Allies have a few dozen and can't make any. By the time I've gotten any numbers it's been down to Chungking and Chengtu hanging on for dear life. I've never played anyone who didn't go all out for China, so it could be different in a different game. But as Lokasenna says, going off to invade India when China is right next door is kind of dumb. OK, he didn't say that. I did. [:)]

[Lokasenna]

There are so many permanent (LCUs) and long term VPs (bases) up for grabs in China that yeah, I think it would be dumb not to go all out for China.

[PaxMondo]

IIRC Alfred, among others, has mapped out a defense for China. I play IJ and in no way feel that taking China is a slam dunk. Can I do it? Yes, but to make it a sure thing I need the allies to make some mistakes.

It takes time for IJ to buy out those units from MAN and a skilled allied player can have units in +3 terrain with +3 forts.
- Get the right units with their HQ in the right places.
- Move units out of chungking, don't let them sit there and eat.
- Fight to keep northern Burma open.
- There are some CHI units that can be bought out and used there.

Just a few obvious, but effective tactics.

The overall objective, besides trying to keep CHI alive, is to cause the IJ to burn as much supply as possible. Simply put, that means ground fighting. Even when the allies are losing, if they do it slow enough they are winning.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I don't think Japan can knock out the Soviets. The disparity in unit quality is just too great.

Not early it isn't. Particularly air units, SOV production is really low and really lousy air craft until '45. In '42, the only decent fighter is the MIG-3, but it is only like 30/mo. The rest of the fighters are like slow Nates/Claudes. Bombers? Ditto. Like a slow Lilly, small bomb loads, not much protection. I'm hoping control of the air will allow me to negate the arty advantage and I really want those air factories which convert into VEH factories for me. [;)] [;)]

I'm playing a game now where I am trying to go after SOV in summer of '42. The goal is to knock both CHI and SOV out of the game in '42.
My biggest challenge is supply management. Funding two large offensives in '42 means very tight supply the whole year, and essentially giving up any stockpiling. Neither the SOV or CHI provide much economic growth (unlike INDIA) ... so its a real gamble and going to be interesting to see what it looks like on the other side (assuming success). Was the supply expenditure worth it?

I'll let you know how it goes ....

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I haven't played form the Allied side as yet, but I have some ideas for China as well. Don't know if they'll work, but... What Pax said about terrain and depth head the list. In addition I think it would be relatively easy to infiltrate Japans' lines with some 'throw away' units to keep his LOC threatened. By 'throw away' units I'm talking about units that are the 'free' rebuilds of destroyed units. You get a 1/3 strength unit for nothing. Push them as far and wide as possible to interfere with his supply lines. When they die they'll be reborn. Rinse and repeat. Also get the 'Hump' up and running as fast as possible. Obliviously I've never tried it and of course the real way to know is in PBEM, so... I've no doubt others have done the same, so they may chime in and tell you of their results. Most of what I hear about defending China is not good though.

The resurrected units are weak, but more importantly they come back at Chungking, a long way from any supply line cutting. By the time they re-appear Chinese units usually have to walk across the countryside to get anywhere. The roads and rails are closed. There's just no time. And if they're caught by any IJA shooter pretty much at all, they die again. They have no supply, and no support devices. They are very vulnerable to being bombed for practice.

The Hump is a good idea and every Allied player does it as soon as he can. But you have no transport planes to speak of for at least six months. Japan starts flush with transports. The Allies have a few dozen and can't make any. By the time I've gotten any numbers it's been down to Chungking and Chengtu hanging on for dear life. I've never played anyone who didn't go all out for China, so it could be different in a different game. But as Lokasenna says, going off to invade India when China is right next door is kind of dumb. OK, he didn't say that. I did. [:)]

True. One way to alleviate the Allied transport deficit is to move all starting USA B-26 Marauders to Ledo. B-26s have 4000 capacity thus they carry 2 supply points and have better durability than most transports. As bombers they are so-so due to their low maneuver rating of just 6 points.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

IIRC Alfred, among others, has mapped out a defense for China. I play IJ and in no way feel that taking China is a slam dunk. Can I do it? Yes, but to make it a sure thing I need the allies to make some mistakes.

It takes time for IJ to buy out those units from MAN and a skilled allied player can have units in +3 terrain with +3 forts.
- Get the right units with their HQ in the right places.
- Move units out of chungking, don't let them sit there and eat.
- Fight to keep northern Burma open.
- There are some CHI units that can be bought out and used there.

Just a few obvious, but effective tactics.

The overall objective, besides trying to keep CHI alive, is to cause the IJ to burn as much supply as possible. Simply put, that means ground fighting. Even when the allies are losing, if they do it slow enough they are winning.

Ah, but northern Burma is just as indefensible in 1942 as China is, unless Japan makes a mistake.

There's really just no way to defend China against a concentrated Japanese effort, even with PPs to cross the border from Manchuria. The quality of the troops is poor. They struggle with supplies, especially if Japan commits even a minimal number of bombers - which has the added benefit of keeping Chinese fatigue and disruption high, and morale low.

You can't conquer it in one big bite, but if you proceed in steps... there are lots of places you can outflank or simply overpower any Chinese defense. I've outlined it before, at least once, but there are a few key places that just cause China to crumple like, well, a paper tiger. Get Changsha and Tuyun, and you can maybe get the ones in between if you want, but once you have those you can easily control hex sides and it's a nice fast march to Kweiyang. You can be at the gates of Chungking within 2-3 months. If the Allies move in air power to try to slow you down, that's actually great for you: all they do is burn up irreplaceable Chinese supply. Meanwhile, you can march through Chengchow to Sian and then Kienko.

Also, don't waste your time fighting in the woods. If you're playing with stacking limits, that may slow things down for a time, but eventually speed them up via the much-maligned snowball.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I don't think Japan can knock out the Soviets. The disparity in unit quality is just too great.

Not early it isn't. Particularly air units, SOV production is really low and really lousy air craft until '45. In '42, the only decent fighter is the MIG-3, but it is only like 30/mo. The rest of the fighters are like slow Nates/Claudes. Bombers? Ditto. Like a slow Lilly, small bomb loads, not much protection. I'm hoping control of the air will allow me to negate the arty advantage and I really want those air factories which convert into VEH factories for me. [;)] [;)]

I'm playing a game now where I am trying to go after SOV in summer of '42. The goal is to knock both CHI and SOV out of the game in '42.
My biggest challenge is supply management. Funding two large offensives in '42 means very tight supply the whole year, and essentially giving up any stockpiling. Neither the SOV or CHI provide much economic growth (unlike INDIA) ... so its a real gamble and going to be interesting to see what it looks like on the other side (assuming success). Was the supply expenditure worth it?

I'll let you know how it goes ....

That's a mighty big if-statement. Also, what gain are those VEH points? What would it save you, a couple tens of thousands in supply if you didn't expand production in Japan? Except that you'll need to in order to "fund" a Soviet campaign. I mean I guess you free up Manchurian troops, for the most part, to go fight in Russia. But there's just too much territory to take and too many forts to break down.

I imagine it can be done, but at what cost?

[Yaab]

Chinese problem is lack of hitting power against Japs. You see dozens of battles where Japs only suffer some disablements and no destroyed squads. I guess these few hits are achieved by organic Chinese field artillery in LCU units. Some corps have moe field arty while others are glorified partisans with rifles only. I would try to put corps with best arty in choke points and try to maximise their hitting power with bomber raids on Japs. One thing you can do is expand Chungking airfield to level 5 pretty quickly. Thus, USA B-17s will fly from there with full bomb loaduts and help Chinese arty to achieve kills on Japanese infantry.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Chinese problem is lack of hitting power against Japs. You see dozens of battles where Japs only suffer some disablements and no destroyed squads. I guess these few hits are achieved by organic Chinese field artillery in LCU units. Some corps have moe field arty while others are glorified partisans with rifles only. I would try to put corps with best arty in choke points and try to maximise their hitting power with bomber raids on Japs. One thing you can do is expand Chungking airfield to level 5 pretty quickly. Thus, USA B-17s will fly from there with full bomb loaduts and help Chinese arty to achieve kills on Japanese infantry.

Dropping the rice you need to delay the Chinese fall as long as you can from the bomb bays of B-17s, to plink relatively harmlessly off the helmets of Japanese soldiers.

[paradigmblue]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I don't think Japan can knock out the Soviets. The disparity in unit quality is just too great.

Not early it isn't. Particularly air units, SOV production is really low and really lousy air craft until '45. In '42, the only decent fighter is the MIG-3, but it is only like 30/mo. The rest of the fighters are like slow Nates/Claudes. Bombers? Ditto. Like a slow Lilly, small bomb loads, not much protection. I'm hoping control of the air will allow me to negate the arty advantage and I really want those air factories which convert into VEH factories for me. [;)] [;)]

I'm playing a game now where I am trying to go after SOV in summer of '42. The goal is to knock both CHI and SOV out of the game in '42.
My biggest challenge is supply management. Funding two large offensives in '42 means very tight supply the whole year, and essentially giving up any stockpiling. Neither the SOV or CHI provide much economic growth (unlike INDIA) ... so its a real gamble and going to be interesting to see what it looks like on the other side (assuming success). Was the supply expenditure worth it?

I'll let you know how it goes ....

+1.

The Soviets receive some large reinforcements in Spring and Summer of '42, but even with those forces they are more vulnerable than people think early game. As Pax mentioned, the Soviet Air Force is outright terrible in stock early game, giving the Japanese player control over the skies until the Soviets get more and better fighters. The bulk of the Soviet artillery is located around Vladivostok, and can be tough to go up against directly, but a smart Japanese player will instead cut the rail line to Vladivostok - which is exceptionally vulnerable - and disrupt reinforcements running either north or south. This also will cut the not-insignificant amount of supplies running South into the key hexes around Vladivostok, which are the hardest nut to crack. Starving Vladivostok is hard, if you bomb the industry here to bits it can be done.

Once you've cut the rail line, you're free to move into the North. There are more armored units here - including two very scary armored divisions and two motor rifle divisions - but your air superiority can really make a difference here in this mostly open terrain, slowing and disabling the armored units.

Aside from the mainland, the Soviet bases on islands and on the coast not connected by rail are very weak, and can be taken amphibiously. Unlike in the DEI, where you have to provide air cover for your invasion force, the Soviets only have a couple of squadrons of marginally effective torpedo bombers (which of course only are deadly when near their Air HQ in Vladivostok/Vorishlov).

That brings up another point. Like China, the Soviet Union is effectively isolated from any potential allied naval threat (the soviet navy is a joke, and while they have a good amount of subs, the surface combatants are easily dispatched), which means that as Japan, you can bombard with impunity as long as you are cognizant of where the Soviet naval forts are located.

The 1942 Soviet troops are tough, but it's not impossible to make some real gains here. I've played both as the allies and Japan in Focus Pacific, which has active Soviets, and while it's tough vs a human, I think that you'll find that the Soviets aren't the bogeyman people make them out to be until their huge reinforcement spike and activation in 45.

Now is it all "worth it"? Versus a human opponent, I think it's risky unless you're going for an early auto-victory, in which case some of the low-hanging fruit can help get you there, or if you have a very well executed plan that can break through quickly to cut off the off-map supply, deal with the Soviet armored divisions and bottle up the bulk of the Soviet artillery around Vladivostok. In my experience, you want to avoid drawn out sieges vs the Soviets due to the damage that their large bore artillery can do. Versus the computer, it's much less risky, and you can accomplish the goals I set out in the previous paragraphs with... well, if not with ease, with practice at least.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

That's a mighty big if-statement. Also, what gain are those VEH points? What would it save you, a couple tens of thousands in supply if you didn't expand production in Japan? Except that you'll need to in order to "fund" a Soviet campaign. I mean I guess you free up Manchurian troops, for the most part, to go fight in Russia. But there's just too much territory to take and too many forts to break down.

I imagine it can be done, but at what cost?

Air power, schmair power. Sometime in the last year I counted up Soviet LCU strength at the start. It was something like 30 IDs and equivalents. And a lot of forts. I'd love to see an out-of-the-gate Japanese invasion of the USSR. But I think the game wouldn't go the distance.

[Bullwinkle58]

Japan can batter the Soviets, yes. But at the cost of ignoring something else. China, the perimeter . . . There's only so much butter for the bread. And Japanese losses against the Red Army are going to be a lot stiffer than against the routing Chinese.

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Chinese problem is lack of hitting power against Japs. You see dozens of battles where Japs only suffer some disablements and no destroyed squads. I guess these few hits are achieved by organic Chinese field artillery in LCU units. Some corps have moe field arty while others are glorified partisans with rifles only. I would try to put corps with best arty in choke points and try to maximise their hitting power with bomber raids on Japs. One thing you can do is expand Chungking airfield to level 5 pretty quickly. Thus, USA B-17s will fly from there with full bomb loaduts and help Chinese arty to achieve kills on Japanese infantry.

Dropping the rice you need to delay the Chinese fall as long as you can from the bomb bays of B-17s, to plink relatively harmlessly off the helmets of Japanese soldiers.

Totally like poetry, you know?

[jwolf]

Have any AARs featured an early war Japan-USSR fight? I'd love to read one.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: jwolf
Have any AARs featured an early war Japan-USSR fight? I'd love to read one.

rader invaded Soviets in May'42, cleared out Vladivostok in late 1943 I believe, earned good VPs. I don't recall why he did not squish the northern part of Soviets, but it did cost him in 1945
tm.asp?m=2421884&mpage=1

[jwolf]

Many thanks GetAssista, I'm in the thick of reading that one now. What a game!! [X(]