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notional during JP surprise impulse - 4/23/2016 1:37:53 AM   
ashkpa


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I believe several notional calculations are incorrect. Please point out my errors. US is at war with GE/IT but not JP. JP have just declared war on the CW to whom the NEI is aligned.

Situation 1 is near Rabaul. As seen, in the attached file, the US has several CAs based in Rabaul. The Japanese are invading Rabaul from the Coral See and have CSV in the Coral Sea and Bismark Sea. When I take the 2-4 mar div from the Coral Sea and place it to invade Rabaul, it gives odds of 2:2 - 1 notional pt doubled for the mountains. Is the presence of the US CA's negating the surprise, even though the US and JP are not at war? Even, if that was the case, I believe the overseas notional supply is blocked by the JP CSV in the Bismark and Coral Sea.

Situation 2 is over in the NEI near Batavia. The JP 6-3 Marine in the 3-box of the South China Sea is invading. I thought there would have been a notional factor in the hex adjacent to Batavia due to the ZOC of the NEI Terr in Batavia, but it is indicating the JP can invade there against 0 notional (6:0). The notional should be a NEI notional and in supply via Batavia.

Pat

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RE: notional during JP surprise impulse - 4/23/2016 4:50:18 AM   
ashkpa


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Thinking and reading a bit on situation 1: It appears the because of the US CA's the notional is determined to be a US notional. The US is not at war with Japan, so it is being supplied through the nearby US convoy chain. If I read the supply rules correctly, Japan would have to be at war with the US to block a US units/notional's supply. This seems odd since the JP are attacking those same units in accordance with the multiple states of war. I am not sure this is what was intended, but appears to be what is going on.

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RE: notional during JP surprise impulse - 4/23/2016 4:54:40 AM   
paulderynck


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At first I thought Situation 1 was a bug. Rabaul is not OOS but it should be. The US CP should not be able to provide supply to a CW notional when units at war with the CW are present in the Bismarck Sea. (This was clarified - same situation as in question 2.4-4(b) of the 2009 FAQ.) However, there is a quirk in the Notional rule that states: "The notional unit is the same nationality as any major power or minor country with a real unit in the hex." It probably should have been written as "...country with a land unit in the hex". But by the current rules it is a US notional and it is in supply because of the US CP chain.

Situation 2 also looks like a bug. Even if the hex were considered CW, it would be in supply from India via the CPs in the Bay of Bengal and East Indian Ocean. It looks like MWiF is missing the friendly ZoC on that hex.



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RE: notional during JP surprise impulse - 4/23/2016 5:29:30 AM   
ashkpa


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If situation 1 is correct. Then this creates a minor gamey opportunity for the US if they can DOW on the Euro axis first. They then move a naval unit into has many ports (especially the NEI oil ports). This would force the JP do DOW on the US at the same time. Learning more about this game all the time.

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RE: notional during JP surprise impulse - 4/23/2016 4:09:15 PM   
Centuur


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Situation 1 has a correct calculation of it's notional, since it is indeed considered to be a US unit.

Situation 2 however, is not correct. If you attack a hex adjacent to the NEI TERR, the notional should have 1 combat factor.

The right calculation is this: 1 standard point, minus 1 for being surprised +1 for being in the ZOC of the TERR. Notionals in NEI are always NEI units if there are no other units in the hex. A notional adjacent to Batavia is in supply because Batavia is a primary supply source for NEI units.




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RE: notional during JP surprise impulse - 4/23/2016 6:38:27 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ashkpa

If situation 1 is correct. Then this creates a minor gamey opportunity for the US if they can DOW on the Euro axis first. They then move a naval unit into has many ports (especially the NEI oil ports). This would force the JP do DOW on the US at the same time. Learning more about this game all the time.

That is true but there are a lot of gamey things that can happen in many other multiple states of war situations too. In this case the US would need to maintain a supply line to all those positions as well.

And if done to excess then logically the gains to Japan in captured and sunk US naval units would make it worthwhile to DoW them too. In a way, not DoWing them in the hopes of another turn or two without them having total war production and fighting in the Pacific is also gamey. Besides, if they are at war with Ge/It already, the boost in chits for the JP DoW on the CW likely means they will be close to a successful DoW on Japan very soon and a preemptive DoW by Japan becomes needed in order not to be surprised by a US one.

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RE: notional during JP surprise impulse - 4/23/2016 9:47:31 PM   
ashkpa


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quote:

That is true but there are a lot of gamey things that can happen in many other multiple states of war situations too. In this case the US would need to maintain a supply line to all those positions as well.

And if done to excess then logically the gains to Japan in captured and sunk US naval units would make it worthwhile to DoW them too. In a way, not DoWing them in the hopes of another turn or two without them having total war production and fighting in the Pacific is also gamey. Besides, if they are at war with Ge/It already, the boost in chits for the JP DoW on the CW likely means they will be close to a successful DoW on Japan very soon and a preemptive DoW by Japan becomes needed in order not to be surprised by a US one.


Agree. I delayed this turn to try and get a surprise port strike in the next impulse and wanted to take advantage of the fine weather in all zones in the first impulse of this Sept-Oct. For your interest, the US did DOW on the next impulse (50% chance) and is now fully in the war).

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RE: notional during JP surprise impulse - 5/12/2016 10:17:24 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ashkpa

I believe several notional calculations are incorrect. Please point out my errors. US is at war with GE/IT but not JP. JP have just declared war on the CW to whom the NEI is aligned.

Situation 1 is near Rabaul. As seen, in the attached file, the US has several CAs based in Rabaul. The Japanese are invading Rabaul from the Coral See and have CSV in the Coral Sea and Bismark Sea. When I take the 2-4 mar div from the Coral Sea and place it to invade Rabaul, it gives odds of 2:2 - 1 notional pt doubled for the mountains. Is the presence of the US CA's negating the surprise, even though the US and JP are not at war? Even, if that was the case, I believe the overseas notional supply is blocked by the JP CSV in the Bismark and Coral Sea.

Situation 2 is over in the NEI near Batavia. The JP 6-3 Marine in the 3-box of the South China Sea is invading. I thought there would have been a notional factor in the hex adjacent to Batavia due to the ZOC of the NEI Terr in Batavia, but it is indicating the JP can invade there against 0 notional (6:0). The notional should be a NEI notional and in supply via Batavia.

Pat

#2 is not a bug. The Commonwealth is surprised so the notional unit is -1 in strength.

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RE: notional during JP surprise impulse - 5/13/2016 12:45:15 AM   
ashkpa


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Yes, but shouldn't there be +1 for being in the ZOC of the adjacent corp?

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RE: notional during JP surprise impulse - 5/13/2016 5:50:02 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: ashkpa

I believe several notional calculations are incorrect. Please point out my errors. US is at war with GE/IT but not JP. JP have just declared war on the CW to whom the NEI is aligned.

Situation 1 is near Rabaul. As seen, in the attached file, the US has several CAs based in Rabaul. The Japanese are invading Rabaul from the Coral See and have CSV in the Coral Sea and Bismark Sea. When I take the 2-4 mar div from the Coral Sea and place it to invade Rabaul, it gives odds of 2:2 - 1 notional pt doubled for the mountains. Is the presence of the US CA's negating the surprise, even though the US and JP are not at war? Even, if that was the case, I believe the overseas notional supply is blocked by the JP CSV in the Bismark and Coral Sea.

Situation 2 is over in the NEI near Batavia. The JP 6-3 Marine in the 3-box of the South China Sea is invading. I thought there would have been a notional factor in the hex adjacent to Batavia due to the ZOC of the NEI Terr in Batavia, but it is indicating the JP can invade there against 0 notional (6:0). The notional should be a NEI notional and in supply via Batavia.

Pat

#2 is not a bug. The Commonwealth is surprised so the notional unit is -1 in strength.


The notional in NEI is a NEI unit, and not a CW unit. Therefore the calculation should be: 1 basic factor, minus 1 for being surprised and +1 for being in the ZOC of a corps. This is a bug.

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RE: notional during JP surprise impulse - 5/30/2016 3:34:18 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ashkpa

Yes, but shouldn't there be +1 for being in the ZOC of the adjacent corp?

You're right.

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RE: notional during JP surprise impulse - 12/13/2016 5:21:13 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Okay, I looked at what the code is doing for situation #2 and I believe the code is correct. Note that this particular line of code was written before 2004 (by Chris) so I assume that he got advice on it from someone at ADG.

What the program does is NOT give the +1 to adjacent corps/army units if they are Territorials. The reason this makes sense is that Territorials would have a -1 if they were attacked directly.

Now of course that only happens if the attacked hex is composed only of Territorials and none of the attacking units are Territorials. But in the case of an invasion into an empty hex (which is the only time we would be looking at units in adjacent hexes), those two assumptions seem reasonable. It's very rare that a Territorial is part of an invasion group. Should the situation arise where there are two or more corps/army units in adjacent hexes and at least one of them is not a Territorial, then you might be able to argue that the Territorial should provide a +1.

But all-in-all, I interpret the overall effect of the various rules as being coded correctly: a Territorial in an adjacent hex never provides +1 to a Notional Unit.

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RE: notional during JP surprise impulse - 12/14/2016 2:00:17 AM   
paulderynck


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That makes it an undocumented (until now) RAC deviation.

I don't recall ever seeing any ruling from ADG to that effect.

I'd prefer to see this logged as a bug as it has a big impact on defending the Middle East against Italian Div invasions in a surprise impulse.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 12/14/2016 2:02:42 AM >


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RE: notional during JP surprise impulse - 12/14/2016 9:39:01 AM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

That makes it an undocumented (until now) RAC deviation.

I don't recall ever seeing any ruling from ADG to that effect.

I'd prefer to see this logged as a bug as it has a big impact on defending the Middle East against Italian Div invasions in a surprise impulse.


I agree. This is not in the rules. I think we need the rules committee for this one...

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RE: notional during JP surprise impulse - 12/14/2016 5:40:12 PM   
Courtenay


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I agree. This is a bug. The Egyptian TERR should certainly provide a +1 to the adjacent hexes; my whole defense of the Suez canal relies on this fact.

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RE: notional during JP surprise impulse - 1/9/2019 9:40:08 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Okay, I looked at what the code is doing for situation #2 and I believe the code is correct. Note that this particular line of code was written before 2004 (by Chris) so I assume that he got advice on it from someone at ADG.

What the program does is NOT give the +1 to adjacent corps/army units if they are Territorials. The reason this makes sense is that Territorials would have a -1 if they were attacked directly.

Now of course that only happens if the attacked hex is composed only of Territorials and none of the attacking units are Territorials. But in the case of an invasion into an empty hex (which is the only time we would be looking at units in adjacent hexes), those two assumptions seem reasonable. It's very rare that a Territorial is part of an invasion group. Should the situation arise where there are two or more corps/army units in adjacent hexes and at least one of them is not a Territorial, then you might be able to argue that the Territorial should provide a +1.

But all-in-all, I interpret the overall effect of the various rules as being coded correctly: a Territorial in an adjacent hex never provides +1 to a Notional Unit.

Is this a official ruling for MWIF? That a TERR never provides +1 (for ZOC) to a notional unit? Is it a deviation, or a bug?

I didn't see it mentioned in RAC. Or is it mentioned in the players manual (I didn't find it)?

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RE: notional during JP surprise impulse - 1/10/2019 7:37:37 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

The notional unit has 1 combat factor, modified by:
ï +1 if it is a city hex;
ï +1 if the hex is in the home country of the major power that controls the hex;
ï +1 if it is not stacked with a land unit, but is in the ZOC of a friendly corps or army;
ï + the shore bombardment modifier for each invading unit;
ï -1 if it cannot trace a basic supply path of any length; and
ï -1 if surprised (see 15.).


Didn't see it in RAW 7

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RE: notional during JP surprise impulse - 1/10/2019 10:20:38 AM   
peskpesk


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Steve, can you please change ruling that Territorial in an adjacent hex never provides +1 to a Notional Unit? They should provide a +1.

Rules
The notional unit has 1 combat factor, modified by:*
* +1 if it is a city hex;
* +1 if the hex is in the home country of the major power that controls the hex;
* +1 if it is not stacked with a land unit, but is in the ZOC of a friendly corps or army;
* + the shore bombardment modifier for each invading unit;
* -1 if it cannot trace a basic supply path of any length;
* -1 if surprised (see 15.0).

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 1/10/2019 10:21:16 AM >


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