If you stopped at the A6M2...

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John 3rd
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If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by John 3rd »

Was truly bored a days ago and pulled out my Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War by Rene Francillon and was reading about each of the Japanese plane types when an idea occurred to me. In the passages on the J2M Raiden and A7M Reppu he attributes each aircraft's deployment delays partially to work on the continuous adaptations of the A6M line.

Stupid question: What might have happened if the Japanese deployed the A6M2 and STOPPED with that model?

Take the A6 line out and what might you gain in time if the Jiro Horikoshi Design Team could have focused all their attention to these plane types? I'm not saying change or try to improve them, I am saying how much time might you be able to move their initial deployments up?

Quotes:

1. J2M--"development problems with the engine cooling system and the laminar flow aerofoil section, combined with the priority given to the development of of the A6M series, delayed the completion of the first prototype J2M1." (389)

2. A7M1--"was not completed until until April 1944, as the Mitsubishi engineering team was required to give priority to the development of newer variants of the A6M and the J2M." (400)

Thoughts and/or opinions of the impact if one designed, produced, and deployed JUST the A6M2?
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PaxMondo
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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Was truly bored a days ago and pulled out my Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War by Rene Francillon and was reading about each of the Japanese plane types when an idea occurred to me. In the passages on the J2M Raiden and A7M Reppu he attributes each aircraft's deployment delays partially to work on the continuous adaptations of the A6M line.

Stupid question: What might have happened if the Japanese deployed the A6M2 and STOPPED with that model?

Take the A6 line out and what might you gain in time if the Jiro Horikoshi Design Team could have focused all their attention to these plane types? I'm not saying change or try to improve them, I am saying how much time might you be able to move their initial deployments up?

Quotes:

1. J2M--"development problems with the engine cooling system and the laminar flow aerofoil section, combined with the priority given to the development of of the A6M series, delayed the completion of the first prototype J2M1." (389)

2. A7M1--"was not completed until until April 1944, as the Mitsubishi engineering team was required to give priority to the development of newer variants of the A6M and the J2M." (400)

Thoughts and/or opinions of the impact if one designed, produced, and deployed JUST the A6M2?
J2M - engine cooling would not have been Jiro's team ... that was the engine team ...

A7M was delayed largely due to the engine induction system, again nothing to do with Jiro.

They kept focused on the A6M as they had no new engine in production and ALL of the new designs needed the new engine as the planes were too big/heavy for the Ha-35.
So, countless tweaks on the A6M ... there really wasn't anything else to do... sadly.
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Dili
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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by Dili »

Yeah. Aircraft engines is always the start of everything aircraft related. If there is no more power nothing can be done except tweaks.
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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by SheperdN7 »

I once asked an aircraft engineer buddy of mine to "find the best version of the A6M Zero". He concluded that after 3 or 4 weeks of reading up on the Zero that the best version in his opinion was the A6M5. The A6M5 pushed the airframe to its absolute limits and any further development after that would've been pointless. What he said will always remain priceless to me- "you can take a Ford Pinto and spiff it up to make it better but at the end of the day it's still a Ford Pinto." He said also that the IJN would've been much better off if they had focused R&D on the A7M and the N1K and also gave the engineers working on the A7M's engine more confidence and support.
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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by m10bob »

When Saburo Sakai finally returned to flying, he was given an A6m model 52 which he claimed was the most advanced model Japan ever produced of the famous plane, but by then he was encountering far superior models like the Hellcat and advanced Corsairs.
He stated the advantages of the A6m2 over earlier allied planes were never seen again and the pilots lost in 1942 would never be replaced by pilots of equal skills.

He may have just been bitter by then but it must have been a real awakening for one who had seen much easier days.

BTW, being an aviation nut, I am aware there were several models of the Zeke made after the A6m5 but Sakai claimed this was the zenith of the series.
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el cid again
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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by el cid again »

Note that Sakai was still able to survive in air combat late in the war - and he had a normally
fatal handicap of only one eye. He also needed special controls due to other injuries. Apparently there
is something to be said for experience! He felt the greatest flaw of the A6M was lack of armor.
Perhaps a 'tweek' to experiment with would be to put armor behind the pilot seat.
ORIGINAL: m10bob

When Saburo Sakai finally returned to flying, he was given an A6m model 52 which he claimed was the most advanced model Japan ever produced of the famous plane, but by then he was encountering far superior models like the Hellcat and advanced Corsairs.
He stated the advantages of the A6m2 over earlier allied planes were never seen again and the pilots lost in 1942 would never be replaced by pilots of equal skills.

He may have just been bitter by then but it must have been a real awakening for one who had seen much easier days.

BTW, being an aviation nut, I am aware there were several models of the Zeke made after the A6m5 but Sakai claimed this was the zenith of the series.
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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by m10bob »

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Note that Sakai was still able to survive in air combat late in the war - and he had a normally
fatal handicap of only one eye. He also needed special controls due to other injuries. Apparently there
is something to be said for experience! He felt the greatest flaw of the A6M was lack of armor.
Perhaps a 'tweek' to experiment with would be to put armor behind the pilot seat.
ORIGINAL: m10bob

When Saburo Sakai finally returned to flying, he was given an A6m model 52 which he claimed was the most advanced model Japan ever produced of the famous plane, but by then he was encountering far superior models like the Hellcat and advanced Corsairs.
He stated the advantages of the A6m2 over earlier allied planes were never seen again and the pilots lost in 1942 would never be replaced by pilots of equal skills.

He may have just been bitter by then but it must have been a real awakening for one who had seen much easier days.

BTW, being an aviation nut, I am aware there were several models of the Zeke made after the A6m5 but Sakai claimed this was the zenith of the series.


So true.
In real life the Japanese aviation industry and the philosophy of Bushido drove many of the design considerations to the point pilots at first recoiled at the thought of the A6m2 having an enclosed cockpit. Many preferred the older "Claude" for at least a year before they understood and respected the performance improvements.
Even then, that same Bushido spirit prevented many from wearing parachutes as they felt it both "unmanly, defeatist, and thought the chute hamstrung their physical movement in the plane.
The planes were designed of course without self-sealing tanks and armor for the same reason, and making the plane lighter than those of other nations made them lose less speed in a power turn, (making them more maneuverable).
Once the allied powers learned to alter their weight to power ratios, that power/turn advantage ended and the Japanese were left with a much more vulnerable aircraft, not suited for a much larger source of power to compensate for the allies newer planes.

In my opinion, if their navy had produced the Raiden "Jack" at least a year sooner, they might have worked out all of its' problems and forced another year into that terrible war.
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John 3rd
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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by John 3rd »

The Jack does seem to be the answer.

Sakai was an amazing pilot.
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m10bob
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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by m10bob »

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

The Jack does seem to be the answer.

Sakai was an amazing pilot.
Perhaps he became over-confidant when he mistook that TBF for an F4F?
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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by Alpha77 »

ORIGINAL: m10bob

When Saburo Sakai finally returned to flying, he was given an A6m model 52 which he claimed was the most advanced model Japan ever produced of the famous plane, but by then he was encountering far superior models like the Hellcat and advanced Corsairs.
He stated the advantages of the A6m2 over earlier allied planes were never seen again and the pilots lost in 1942 would never be replaced by pilots of equal skills.

He may have just been bitter by then but it must have been a real awakening for one who had seen much easier days.

BTW, being an aviation nut, I am aware there were several models of the Zeke made after the A6m5 but Sakai claimed this was the zenith of the series.

If A6M5 would be a bit faster and more durable, it would be pretty good even in late 43 imo.

Btw:

"Claims have been made that his autobiography "Samurai!" includes fictional stories, and that the number of kills specified in that work were increased to promote sales of the book by Martin Caidin. The book was not published in Japan, and differs from his biographies there.[3]"

http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=h ... 9&biw=1600
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m10bob
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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by m10bob »

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

ORIGINAL: m10bob

When Saburo Sakai finally returned to flying, he was given an A6m model 52 which he claimed was the most advanced model Japan ever produced of the famous plane, but by then he was encountering far superior models like the Hellcat and advanced Corsairs.
He stated the advantages of the A6m2 over earlier allied planes were never seen again and the pilots lost in 1942 would never be replaced by pilots of equal skills.

He may have just been bitter by then but it must have been a real awakening for one who had seen much easier days.

BTW, being an aviation nut, I am aware there were several models of the Zeke made after the A6m5 but Sakai claimed this was the zenith of the series.

If A6M5 would be a bit faster and more durable, it would be pretty good even in late 43 imo.

Btw:

"Claims have been made that his autobiography "Samurai!" includes fictional stories, and that the number of kills specified in that work were increased to promote sales of the book by Martin Caidin. The book was not published in Japan, and differs from his biographies there.[3]"

http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=h ... 9&biw=1600


Once men die detractors come out of the woodwork so the dead cannot defend themselves.
I read my first copy of Caiden's book in the early sixties, the latest copy from the Military Book Club in the eighties?
Those copies are identical (except for the binding).
During the sixties many of the war aces toured the country.
Thanks to dad, I met Sakai, Bader, Galland, J.E.Johnson, and a few of the American pilots.
(Even got to take a ride in a Ford Tri-moter, LOL)..
I suppose we must make up our own minds about a pilots' credibility.
I know Richtofen had over 80 kills but perhaps less than half were "fighters".
I just don't think Caiden needed to embellish anything for "book sales", and not being a revisionist, I still believe WW2 happened.[;)]
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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by US87891 »

Late to the party, perhaps, but a mod is a mod, is a mod. Why bind up the limitations with specific practical realities? Better just to keep Kosher so no one can bitch. But what if? That's the paradigm, isn't it?

Yes, engine development limited Japanese aero development. But why was this so? They had the skills, and the specialty metals (up to a point), and actually built and flew examples, so it wasn't as if the engines didn't work.

A bit of this and that, and somebody in the Air Ministry, and it's like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get.

Go for it John 3d.

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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by RogerBacon »

ORIGINAL: Alpha77



"Claims have been made that his autobiography "Samurai!" includes fictional stories, and that the number of kills specified in that work were increased to promote sales of the book by Martin Caidin. The book was not published in Japan, and differs from his biographies there.[3]"


I'm not sure when that quote was taken but I bought that book in Tokyp back in 1998 so I know its definitely for sale in Japan.
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decourcy2
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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by decourcy2 »

And Jiro was involved in the engine work; the over all designer was considered senior to the engine development people and Jira was constantly called to work on the late A6's when he was trying to help the engine teams work on cooling systems.
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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by durnedwolf »

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Note that Sakai was still able to survive in air combat late in the war - and he had a normally
fatal handicap of only one eye. He also needed special controls due to other injuries. Apparently there
is something to be said for experience! He felt the greatest flaw of the A6M was lack of armor.
Perhaps a 'tweek' to experiment with would be to put armor behind the pilot seat.
ORIGINAL: m10bob

When Saburo Sakai finally returned to flying, he was given an A6m model 52 which he claimed was the most advanced model Japan ever produced of the famous plane, but by then he was encountering far superior models like the Hellcat and advanced Corsairs.
He stated the advantages of the A6m2 over earlier allied planes were never seen again and the pilots lost in 1942 would never be replaced by pilots of equal skills.

He may have just been bitter by then but it must have been a real awakening for one who had seen much easier days.

BTW, being an aviation nut, I am aware there were several models of the Zeke made after the A6m5 but Sakai claimed this was the zenith of the series.


So true.
In real life the Japanese aviation industry and the philosophy of Bushido drove many of the design considerations to the point pilots at first recoiled at the thought of the A6m2 having an enclosed cockpit. Many preferred the older "Claude" for at least a year before they understood and respected the performance improvements.
Even then, that same Bushido spirit prevented many from wearing parachutes as they felt it both "unmanly, defeatist, and thought the chute hamstrung their physical movement in the plane.
The planes were designed of course without self-sealing tanks and armor for the same reason, and making the plane lighter than those of other nations made them lose less speed in a power turn, (making them more maneuverable).
Once the allied powers learned to alter their weight to power ratios, that power/turn advantage ended and the Japanese were left with a much more vulnerable aircraft, not suited for a much larger source of power to compensate for the allies newer planes.

In my opinion, if their navy had produced the Raiden "Jack" at least a year sooner, they might have worked out all of its' problems and forced another year into that terrible war.

I think that you can try to "what-if" things to death... It's a non-historical mod. I think that if you want Japan to have fighters that can compete with the allies then you have to do one of four things:

1. Japan comes up with a new fighter concept on their own based on what they have available and what they need to compete with the allies based on observed/reported performance.

2. Japan reverse-engineers a downed allied latest-gen fighter and starts production. This would take some time so if you wanted this fighter in late 1944-45 you'd have to go with an allied model from sometime 1942-43.

3. Germany gave Japan everything they had on the aircraft they were producing plus plans of what they had in R&D. You could even throw in aircraft designs from Italy... Say Japan got regular updates from Germany starting in late 1942... What would they produce?

4. Japan's spy network is able to buy/steal fighter plans from the UK or Oz. Wouldn't be funny to see the plans for the UK's Rolls-Royce Griffon engined Mk XII Spitfire fall into Japan's hands? Would Japan try to use the Rolls-Royce engines in other air frames?

I seem to remember that Japan had problems producing the higher octane fuel... If true, I imagine you'd see a slight performance increase if, in your scenario, Japan has cracked the problem and can produce AV fuel of equal quality to the allies.

I also read that late in the war, Japan's air warning system was still of poor quality to help Japan get their fighters to the right place and the right altitude at the right time. I'm not really familiar with modding but, if you gave the Air Support Engineers better equipment, then it increases the detection level and more of Japan's fighters are able to respond and maybe get that first drop - yes?

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Aurorus
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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by Aurorus »

It is my understanding as well that Japanese aviation fuel was lower octane, which reduced engine performance. For example, a Ki-84a tested with U.S. aviation fuel after the war had a top speed of 426 MPH at 23,000 feet http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ ... 4-156A.pdf . Compare this with the current rating of 405 mph in the game, which is based upon the reports of Japanese testing using Japanese aviation fuel. So, if you want to improve Japanese aircraft performance in the game with alternate histories, you need only assume that Japan refined better quality aviation fuel. You can then use some of the test results of Japanese aircraft postwar by U.S. pilots as the basis to rate the Japanese aircraft.
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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by Shark7 »

Makes me wonder. The Nakajima Homare engine (the Ha-45) was actually developed and certified in 1940-41, but had issues. So what if Japan had concentrated on getting those engines' problems worked out and into mass production earlier?

After all, this is the engine series that powered the Ki-84, N1K1/N1K2, P1Y1, and B7A2 to name a few. If those engines had been 'perfected' earlier, could the better mid to late war planes have come in time to make a difference? Also, could N1K series been adapted for carrier operations?
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decourcy2
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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by decourcy2 »

Octane is a complicated issue, an A6M2 engine is not going to do better with 100 octane fuel, it will do a bit worse. The optimum compression ratio needs to be quite high for 100 octane fuel to help.

As an example, when I was a young man in the United States I used 87 octane fuel in my car, my last car was a Mazda 3, I used 89 for that. My new Honda turbo recommends 93 octane but I have been using 89 cause I am cheap and that seems fine. I did try one tank of 87 for comparison and I lost 3 or 4 horsepower and 4 mpg. But, if I used 93 octane in my Buick when I was young I would not get better performance, it would just burn poorly.
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RE: If you stopped at the A6M2...

Post by pmelheck1 »

One thing in any discussion of fielding a new aircraft isn't just issues with the design of the air frame or power plant. There are sometimes issues with technology not being there to support what you are trying to accomplish. It could be with Metallurgy, Rubber or miniaturization just to name a few that you have to over come before progress on the aircraft can proceed. I remember reading something on the Me-262 on a similar discussion about early fielding. The air frame was ready much earlier but the metallurgy wasn't up to the task to make jet engines that were even as minimally airworthy as the engines were. The result of the discussion finally came to the conclusion that the 262 just couldn't have been fielded any quicker and that wishful thinking doesn't make the process go any faster. Throwing money and time at things doesn't always make them occur quicker or at all as the line of progress sometimes is the wrong one and/or things don't always pan out no matter what you want.
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