Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

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MrLongleg
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Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by MrLongleg »

I would like to play this gem again, preferably against human opponents ;-)

MrLongleg

Life is too short to drink bad wine ;-)
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Bombur
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by Bombur »

I can play with you. Maybe we could find 7 players?
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ironduke1955
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by ironduke1955 »

6 Players I am in, we have the new version od GD1938 (but please don't reduce the air units ranges in fact for interception can you increase them)

Can we play a friendly stress free uncompetitive game[:D]
Are we like late Rome, infatuated with past glories, ruled by a complacent, greedy elite, and hopelessly powerless to respond to changing conditions?

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cpdeyoung
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by cpdeyoung »

I will join, but let someone else have the Soviets. By preference I would like the Americans, making the world, once again, safe for Democracy.

Chuck
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baloo7777
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by baloo7777 »

Have you filled all the players? If not count me in...have played every country EXCEPT Germany and Soviet Union. If you are full, I will be glad to be an alternate if someone drops out later. Please let me know. [8D]
JRR
LJBurstyn
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by LJBurstyn »

If you still need players I am available.
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Bombur
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by Bombur »

Before we start, let us clarify some things.
After I understood better the interception engine and considering some ironduke´s remarks, we decided to set interception chances at 100%. However, I noticed that aircraft range was, in many cases, overestimated, because I calculated some of them using a 100km hex, while the correct is 150km, so I recalculated them. I don´t want to have it back to former values because it impacts the escort range too. However, I can change rulevar147 to set interception range. Currently it´s set as 50% of max range (by default), so a Spitifire or an early Bf-109 will have 1 hex interception range, while Bf-109F will have 2 hexes. Should I increase it to 75% or 100%? Higher values will likely result in more realistic combat for short range fighters but also will result in very unrealistic interception ranges for longer range aircraft like P-51 or Zeroes. I vote for avalue of 0.7.
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Bombur
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by Bombur »

We already have 6 players, will we recruit the 7th?
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baloo7777
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by baloo7777 »

ORIGINAL: Bombur

We already have 6 players, will we recruit the 7th?

Think RufusTFirefly would want to join? He didn't get much play as US in G22.
JRR
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baloo7777
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by baloo7777 »

Bombur since you are still adjusting the interception range then an updated version will be made available for the game. Am I correct?
JRR
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ernieschwitz
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by ernieschwitz »

ORIGINAL: baloo7777
Bombur since you are still adjusting the interception range then an updated version will be made available for the game. Am I correct?

Yes, that would most likely be the case. And probably falls on me to update the file on the scenario bank ... No problem, can do.
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ironduke1955
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by ironduke1955 »

Should I increase it to 75% or 100%? Higher values will likely result in more realistic combat for short range fighters but also will result in very unrealistic interception ranges for longer range aircraft like P-51 or Zeroes. I vote for avalue of 0.7.

Well GD1938 works best when air warfare is contested every turn in the air as it is on the ground and at sea,
no turns where complete theatres see no air combat, because of a rule that is intended for infinitely smaller scale conflicts 10k scale as opposed to 150k scale.

Just a quick word on operational ranges,
I am reading operational ranges of 415 miles for the MK1 spitfire they did not change much during the war,
the recon Spitfires stripped out an loaded with fuel tanks were some 2000 miles or so I am reading, so the entire area no free bombing runs win the air space then do what you want with it.

Any chance of allowing air units to retreat out of hexes as they do in War in the East and other 2nd World War games its odd that a infantry man walking can retreat but a man in a plane can't.
Are we like late Rome, infatuated with past glories, ruled by a complacent, greedy elite, and hopelessly powerless to respond to changing conditions?

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ernieschwitz
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by ernieschwitz »

Any chance of allowing air units to retreat out of hexes as they do in War in the East and other 2nd World War games its odd that a infantry man walking can retreat but a man in a plane can't.

I don't think the ATG Engine has that option in it. If it does I would be happy to implement it.
Creator of High Quality Scenarios for:
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Bombur
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by Bombur »

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz
ORIGINAL: baloo7777
Bombur since you are still adjusting the interception range then an updated version will be made available for the game. Am I correct?

Yes, that would most likely be the case. And probably falls on me to update the file on the scenario bank ... No problem, can do.


Ernie, I can do an experimental version for this game only, the change is very small, I believe.
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Bombur
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by Bombur »


Well GD1938 works best when air warfare is contested every turn in the air as it is on the ground and at sea,
no turns where complete theatres see no air combat, because of a rule that is intended for infinitely smaller scale conflicts 10k scale as opposed to 150k scale.

Just a quick word on operational ranges,
I am reading operational ranges of 415 miles for the MK1 spitfire they did not change much during the war,
the recon Spitfires stripped out an loaded with fuel tanks were some 2000 miles or so I am reading, so the entire area no free bombing runs win the air space then do what you want with it.

Any chance of allowing air units to retreat out of hexes as they do in War in the East and other 2nd World War games its odd that a infantry man walking can retreat but a man in a plane can't.


I cant do aircraft retreat, it´s hardcoded. Operational range mentioned in most sites is total range. For a Spitifire I it would be somewhat better, about 500 miles (about 800km-400km to go and 400km to return-it´s possible your site is using sea miles, it would give you about 750km). So the interception radius would be about 3 hexes. However, what limits the interception radius isn´t the aircraft operational range, it´s the absence of early warning systems allowing for long range interceptions. Still, an Spitifire or other short range interceptor could intercept a raid at, say, 400-500km from their base, if (1)the bombing target is deep in friendly territory, so there is enough time for warning, by radars in the edge of your territory and (2)If there is a base closer to the target that your fighter could use to land after the combat. Otherwise, any interception beyond 300km would be very difficult to achieve. For a long range fighter, like the Zero, the Ki-43-II, the P-51 or the Yak-9 DD the interception range wouldn´t be much bigger due to the mentioned early warnings limits. So, we have to be cautious when we change interception range, because we are thinking about early war short range interceptions but we will have very strange results with late war longer range aircraft. I think 0.5 for rulevar147 is ok, you will have to plan better to have every raid contested. 0.7 is ok with me but it will allow a Zero to make interceptions at 6 hexes, which is completely unrealistic, at cruising speed the Zero would take 3 hours to reach the target hex, by this time all enemy aircraft had already fled..... Do we agree with that? 100% range will result in pretty odd interceptions. So the question is, what is the better compromise? All of you agree with a 0.7 value? I´m trying to see alternatives to model these early warining limitations, I will talk to ernie because it´s possible to implement some icym suggestions without having unrealistic escort ranges.
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baloo7777
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by baloo7777 »

I defer to the opinions of the veteran players of this mod. I like the 100% though.
JRR
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cpdeyoung
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by cpdeyoung »

About the airfield attack, and defensive issues :

Let's not change the game (scenario) to reflect an experience. This game is not nearly on the scale of War in the East.

If it makes you feel better think of the overrunning of an airbase complex as the loss of all Luftwaffe air/ground components, the fueling/arming/Command infrastructure, and a lot of planes.

We are all aware that air units and HQ elements are not meant to meet front line armor. They need to be protected, or far enough behind the lines to be reasonably safe.

Given the state of the simulation (as we are given it by our developers) there were not enough forces in place to protect those assets. One half the Luftwaffe, protected by HQ staff, and behind a four division plug in a 150 mile hex failed to stop a massive Soviet attack. This is as it should be in ATG/GD1938. The answer is probably better found in defending the hex more carefully.

I have been the Soviet commander for quite a few games. I assure you any more changes to deprive them of offensive bite must be resisted. The Germans were worn out by the 1941 approach to Moscow. In this simulation the more the Axis attacks the stronger they get. After the airfield attack the Germans turn saw 73 Soviet tank formations destroyed for a loss of 4 German panzer units. In infantry the numbers were 174 formations to 12. There are no penalties for German attacks in these numbers. Someone else needs to experience these losses to appreciate the frustration.

I would like to hear what Larry has to say about defending after his experience with the Japanese in G22.
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ironduke1955
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by ironduke1955 »

I agree with your calculations perhaps with the range of interception from the short range of interception 1 to 3 hexes,
there is 100% interception rate, from 4 hexes to the maximum interception range there is a 50% chance of interception,
so as it would be in the theatre if the air commander decided to have long range fighter sweeps as the British and Americans did,
with squadrons spaced widely apart they could have success, the reason for the long sweeps was that the Germans had ceased to contest the short range frontline airspace,
and the allied fighters had to penetrate deeper into enemy airspace to find enemy air.
This would address the issue of long range fighters who were less likely to find a target to attack. at the limits of their ranges.
And as their is a penalty to be paid if you deploy fighters to close to a fluid front due to the inability of air units to retreat. it would allow short range fighters,
with a maximum of 3 hex interception range to deploy one or two hexes back from the front line and still be able to intercept.
Are we like late Rome, infatuated with past glories, ruled by a complacent, greedy elite, and hopelessly powerless to respond to changing conditions?

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ironduke1955
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by ironduke1955 »

Given the state of the simulation (as we are given it by our developers) there were not enough forces in place to protect those assets. One half the Luftwaffe, protected by HQ staff, and behind a four division plug in a 150 mile hex failed to stop a massive Soviet attack. This is as it should be in ATG/GD1938. The answer is probably better found in defending the hex more carefully.

You don't have to defend a airbase 300k behind friendly front lines, if the base were threatened the planes would simply take off and reposition back, due to the huge strength of Soviet tanks used, the Germans would have had to use a panzer army to protect a airbase [&:]
I am sure you have played War in the East/West (Gary Grigsby) if a airbase looks like it will be overrun it simply deploys back.
Are we like late Rome, infatuated with past glories, ruled by a complacent, greedy elite, and hopelessly powerless to respond to changing conditions?

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ironduke1955
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RE: Need opponent or join a GD1938 game

Post by ironduke1955 »

I have been the Soviet commander for quite a few games. I assure you any more changes to deprive them of offensive bite must be resisted. The Germans were worn out by the 1941 approach to Moscow. In this simulation the more the Axis attacks the stronger they get. After the airfield attack the Germans turn saw 73 Soviet tank formations destroyed for a loss of 4 German panzer units. In infantry the numbers were 174 formations to 12. There are no penalties for German attacks in these numbers. Someone else needs to experience these losses to appreciate the frustration.

I have been aware that Soviet fuel has been used in the offensive against the Japanese, the Soviets have been very passive for at least 9 months on the eastern front and have paid for this passivity, I understand the priority of disposing of the Japanese but that is the reason for high Soviet casualties on the Eastern Front, the quantity of armour facing the Germans has been huge but static used to block, and contrary to Soviet estimations of German strength, there have been opportunities for the Soviets that they have not taken for the reasons stated above. Not enough fuel for a two front war.
Are we like late Rome, infatuated with past glories, ruled by a complacent, greedy elite, and hopelessly powerless to respond to changing conditions?

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