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Sweeps and Flak - 3/20/2016 11:01:37 PM   
Revthought


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I find it kind of odd that my AAA does not shoot at Japanese fighters "sweeping" over an AA infested city. If there is a question here, it is why doesn't AA apply to fighter aircraft doing air superiority missions right over the gun tubes?

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RE: Sweeps and Flak - 3/20/2016 11:15:21 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

I find it kind of odd that my AAA does not shoot at Japanese fighters "sweeping" over an AA infested city. If there is a question here, it is why doesn't AA apply to fighter aircraft doing air superiority missions right over the gun tubes?


My theory would be cause of "friendly fire" danger. This will be a dog fight with many friendly planes in the air too. Right ? Better order the Flak guys to not shoot rather than to shoot down the own guys

Remember Op. "Bodenplatte" by the Luftwaffe, was disaster not only cause of Allied resistance but of German Flak shooting at their own in masses Major ****-up of planning and comunication it seems. Better tell them all to "chease fire" even in danger that some ememy planes might get through.

See:



< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 3/20/2016 11:20:19 PM >

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RE: Sweeps and Flak - 3/21/2016 1:04:05 AM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

I find it kind of odd that my AAA does not shoot at Japanese fighters "sweeping" over an AA infested city. If there is a question here, it is why doesn't AA apply to fighter aircraft doing air superiority missions right over the gun tubes?


My theory would be cause of "friendly fire" danger. This will be a dog fight with many friendly planes in the air too. Right ? Better order the Flak guys to not shoot rather than to shoot down the own guys



What about unopposed sweeps?

(in reply to Alpha77)
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RE: Sweeps and Flak - 3/21/2016 1:55:34 AM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

I find it kind of odd that my AAA does not shoot at Japanese fighters "sweeping" over an AA infested city. If there is a question here, it is why doesn't AA apply to fighter aircraft doing air superiority missions right over the gun tubes?


My theory would be cause of "friendly fire" danger. This will be a dog fight with many friendly planes in the air too. Right ? Better order the Flak guys to not shoot rather than to shoot down the own guys



What about unopposed sweeps?



No idea, another one to the "front" for that one

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RE: Sweeps and Flak - 3/21/2016 8:38:04 AM   
Barb


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Well, if someone knows something about how flak works (prediction at all: https://youtu.be/PIYVwqHM488 ), you will find that a usual fighter sweep flying rather high-up would be virtually untouchable by heavy flak... You simply do not fly straight in fighter over enemy territory for any period of time! So I think it was a design decision to simply "cancel" the flak routine for sweeps/escorts even on unopposed raids.

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RE: Sweeps and Flak - 3/21/2016 3:06:56 PM   
Revthought


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

I find it kind of odd that my AAA does not shoot at Japanese fighters "sweeping" over an AA infested city. If there is a question here, it is why doesn't AA apply to fighter aircraft doing air superiority missions right over the gun tubes?


My theory would be cause of "friendly fire" danger. This will be a dog fight with many friendly planes in the air too. Right ? Better order the Flak guys to not shoot rather than to shoot down the own guys

Remember Op. "Bodenplatte" by the Luftwaffe, was disaster not only cause of Allied resistance but of German Flak shooting at their own in masses Major ****-up of planning and comunication it seems. Better tell them all to "chease fire" even in danger that some ememy planes might get through.

See:




Sure, that makes sense and we always have to remember that it's a game; however, if you play PBEM you know about the cat and mouse sweep game, where you're actively trying to avoid your opponents sweeps. It's super frustrating when I guess correctly, stand my fighters down for the day, and 30 zeros appear over one of my bases with a massive AAA presence because the AAA guns won't bother to shoot at the mass of Japanese fighters flying 15k overhead.


_____________________________

Playing at war is a far better vocation than making people fight in them.

(in reply to Alpha77)
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RE: Sweeps and Flak - 3/21/2016 3:09:05 PM   
Revthought


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Well, if someone knows something about how flak works (prediction at all: https://youtu.be/PIYVwqHM488 ), you will find that a usual fighter sweep flying rather high-up would be virtually untouchable by heavy flak... You simply do not fly straight in fighter over enemy territory for any period of time! So I think it was a design decision to simply "cancel" the flak routine for sweeps/escorts even on unopposed raids.


I've got shells to spare! Fire away, and maybe you'll knock one of those Zero airframes (and pilots if we're really lucky) out of the war! Everything helps the Allies in December of 1941. ;)

_____________________________

Playing at war is a far better vocation than making people fight in them.

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RE: Sweeps and Flak - 3/21/2016 7:58:38 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

Sure, that makes sense and we always have to remember that it's a game; however, if you play PBEM you know about the cat and mouse sweep game, where you're actively trying to avoid your opponents sweeps. It's super frustrating when I guess correctly, stand my fighters down for the day, and 30 zeros appear over one of my bases with a massive AAA presence because the AAA guns won't bother to shoot at the mass of Japanese fighters flying 15k overhead.



Then you would need a more distinctive system of airplane identification... I am not sure how good this was in WW2. But for sure there is a difference between even only 2E bombers to fighters also in sound. The thing is in reality you could decide yourself to lauch planes or not. In the game you cannot not. If they are on "cap" setting they will try to intercept regardless of what the target is. It can only be 5 Wirraways that would do no damage at all but still 50 Zeors are launched to intercept them. Or in the case of sweeps say these are 50 P47s, you have only 30 Oscars at the base, would you contest these 50 P47 in reality (assuming the commander isnt in "Banzai" stance)...

OTH in the case these are eg. 30 B25s - then you would need to launch in any case otherwise they will trash your base....

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 3/21/2016 8:00:36 PM >

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RE: Sweeps and Flak - 3/21/2016 8:23:30 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought


quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Well, if someone knows something about how flak works (prediction at all: https://youtu.be/PIYVwqHM488 ), you will find that a usual fighter sweep flying rather high-up would be virtually untouchable by heavy flak... You simply do not fly straight in fighter over enemy territory for any period of time! So I think it was a design decision to simply "cancel" the flak routine for sweeps/escorts even on unopposed raids.


I've got shells to spare! Fire away, and maybe you'll knock one of those Zero airframes (and pilots if we're really lucky) out of the war! Everything helps the Allies in December of 1941. ;)


I believe you both are right in some way.

But the allies will win anyway. So in 41 you will need to take some pain and 42 possibly too. Except you play vs. a skilled Japanese player who can get maybe a draw...

(in reply to Revthought)
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RE: Sweeps and Flak - 3/21/2016 8:35:49 PM   
John B.


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My guess would be that flak is relatively immobile point defense that you place around airfields, factories, combat formations, ports etc... If you're coming after one of those fixed targets for bombing or strafing, the enemy positions the flak so that you have to fly over or very near it. CAP does not circle just over the existing flak batteries but is stationed to intercept enemy bombers before they reach the flak zones and then to peel away once the flak is about to open up. So, most of the air-to-air fighting would be done outside of the flak kill zones. That helps to avoid friendly fire flak casualties and lets the flak gunners maximize their effectiveness since they don't have to worry about target ID they can just shoot at anything flying. A sweep that is not met by CAP is highly unlikely to fly over likely flak positions at low altitude. If flak was going to cause sweep causalities then it should also shoot down friendly CAP that is in the air.

Flak does work against fighters who are bombing and strafing and that makes sense because then they're putting themselves in harm's way.

(in reply to Alpha77)
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RE: Sweeps and Flak - 3/21/2016 8:59:18 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.

My guess would be that flak is relatively immobile point defense that you place around airfields, factories, combat formations, ports etc... If you're coming after one of those fixed targets for bombing or strafing, the enemy positions the flak so that you have to fly over or very near it. CAP does not circle just over the existing flak batteries but is stationed to intercept enemy bombers before they reach the flak zones and then to peel away once the flak is about to open up. So, most of the air-to-air fighting would be done outside of the flak kill zones. That helps to avoid friendly fire flak casualties and lets the flak gunners maximize their effectiveness since they don't have to worry about target ID they can just shoot at anything flying. A sweep that is not met by CAP is highly unlikely to fly over likely flak positions at low altitude. If flak was going to cause sweep causalities then it should also shoot down friendly CAP that is in the air.

Flak does work against fighters who are bombing and strafing and that makes sense because then they're putting themselves in harm's way.



Good expaination imo. We always need to remember they hadnt much IFF system in WW2. These came up in the 50ties or so I believe. In the 90ties I was in a radar and AA unit and ofc. the systems all could identify enemy from friendly planes via IFF. This was an improved Hawk system so not even the most modern back then. The radar needed to be also at special point of the terrain ofc. Even if it was mobile it took time to move around (not as mobile as todays systems)...the positions to move to were pre-planned I believe. But even if you identify the enemy via IFF, the missile still could go after the wrong plane if friends were in the air nearby.

Another point I forgot, the early war systems were not really good to identify height and speed of planes. Still when radar came up even in late war this was difficult. Not as today when you have huge screens and get all the "blimps" with data attached to each contact. There was more guess-work in WW2.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 3/21/2016 9:04:07 PM >

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RE: Sweeps and Flak - 3/21/2016 9:05:22 PM   
Alpha77

 

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See here fore example a screen from Heathrow London:


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RE: Sweeps and Flak - 3/21/2016 9:34:51 PM   
John B.


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Alpha, that chart gives me a headache! :-)


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RE: Sweeps and Flak - 3/21/2016 9:45:46 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.

Alpha, that chart gives me a headache! :-)





Than you should not play Harpoon or the other new modern naval game form Matrix. Cause these games use simmilar screens. They are even used by some navies for training (Harpoon eg. was used by the Australian navy)

(in reply to John B.)
Post #: 14
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