P-47s: Hammer of God?

[John B.]

Scott and I are in August of 1943 and the main land campaign is taking place in Burma/Thailand. For about two months we have engaged in a savage war of air attrition. There has been a decisive edge for the allies, and, more specifically, for the P-47s. The P-38Hs do ok, but P-47s will get 4-1 or better kill ratios. As you can see from our latest turn, Scott lost more than 30 planes and I lost one P-47. Some of his boys were shot down by P-38Hs but at least 2/3rds fell to the Thunderbolts. Scott says he is using good commanders, and low fatigue pilots with a2a ratings of 70+ and this combat is taking place over his bases (Chang Mai and Moulemen). I go get the altitude advantage with the P-47s and my a2a is high 60s to low 70s with good commanders. Assuming on the off chance that this is not due to my skill and cunning should the results continue to be this lopsided? The P47s do have a large durability advantage and lots of my planes will be damaged in these fights, but very few lost. Are we missing something.

OH, as for the SBD losses, you would think that one day I would learn the lesson to not use dive bombers in a ground war and you would be wrong.

[Lecivius]

P-47's + dive bonus = unhappy Japanese player


As it should be [:D] (Yes, I am an AFB [:'(] )

[Big B]

If you and your opponent have squadrons both in the high 60's low'70s - yes the P-47 will be the Hammer of God.

Here's why - they have tremendous Durability, FIREPOWER, and SPEED.
These are CRITICAL factors in the game engine, with experience around 70, P-47 pilots will easily tangle with any Japanese fighters of equal or greater experience...


Allied planes with high firepower/durability/speed combination of advantages - and decent experience - will be well neigh unbeatable...just as the Zero dominated buffalo's in the first months of the war (for example).


B

[Lowpe]

Japan needs the Frank A to enter production to have a good chance versus the Jugs.

If you are using the air modded planes, then the Jack and George can do well too and perhaps even the KAI Tony.

[Mundy]

I've had great success also with the Jug. Especially the -25 model.

Georges can still hit back at times, and they seem to be the most formidable opponent for them.

Apart from that, I've hit ratios of 8-1 at times.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Japan needs the Frank A to enter production to have a good chance versus the Jugs.

If you are using the air modded planes, then the Jack and George can do well too and perhaps even the KAI Tony.

There are tactics that can compete with it, but it's hard. You have to be able to get enough groups at a base to layer your CAP appropriately, and you need to pay attention to individual group skill levels and plane capabilities.

The Ki-100-I Tony does pretty alright against the P-47 when it is not the only plane present. Even when it is, it's a tough out.

[panzer cat]

I've tried layering my aircraft according to there best alt band. My aircraft at this point are just overmatched, the ground pounders are on there own..


scott

[Denniss]

Sounds like the influence of maneuver rating is a tad too low in WitP.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Sounds like the influence of maneuver rating is a tad too low in WitP.

The reason P-47s don't care is because if there is a high enough speed delta (IIRC it is 50mph or more), then the plane that is slower has its maneuver rating penalized by 50% (I think). A bit busy right now, or I'd find a citation [:)].

So for example, a P-47 will cut the maneuver rating of an A6M in half because it is so much faster. This somewhat represents "E" fighters (as in "energy") instead of "dogfight" fighters. The P-38 is perhaps the quintessential example of an E fighter, but even it fares poorly in the air model here.

[BillBrown]

I think it a speed difference of 70mph, but I also may be wrong.

[panzer cat]

Energy is king in a gunfight. The faster aircraft should get a bonus, it has the ability to zoom in and out of the fight.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I think it a speed difference of 70mph, but I also may be wrong.

My notes are 70 ...

[SBD]

OH, as for the SBD losses, you would think that one day I would learn the lesson to not use dive bombers in a ground war and you would be wrong.

Please be more careful!

[Lowpe]

Fighting the Jugs with these planes try:

Put the Zeroes at 3K, 30/20 (CAP/Rest). Use only one squadron (they are bait).

Layer the Tonies and the Tojo starting at 6K and go up to 9K. Keep the Tonies on the lower end of the spectrum, and run all these groups at 40/20. Don't go above 9k.

All fighters to range 0.

The Zeroes will get butchered most times, but you will start to drop Jugs. With these frames I suspect your losses will be 3-1 or slightly less. Make sure you are using your very best fighters in the Tojo.

Make sure you have radar, radar, and more radar.

Do the math: you want fighters that are not 70mph slower; with CL cannons preferably; high maneuver; great pilots a2a and def; 200+ planes; great squadron leaders; radar; big airfields with plentiful supply and support on railroads; watch plane fatigue, pilot fatigue, morale.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you want Frank A, Tony d or better, George and Jack can provide cannons but keep them protected from the dive (especially the 2nd Jack I think is too slow). The bait squadron needs to have very high defense pilots or just use throw aways.

If the bombers come, even your fighters at 3K will fight them given enough radars...

No reason to play the high altitude game. After several encounters like this, you will see the Allies drop their sweeping altitude for a number of reasons.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I think it a speed difference of 70mph, but I also may be wrong.

My notes are 70 ...

The question to me is >= or >?

The second Jugs is I think exactly 70 mph faster than the Oscar IV in stock. The Oscar IV makes for great bait (very low CAP) against the first Jugs.

[Alfred]

There is no 50mph or 70 mph speed differential cut off threshold.  This thread is in serious danger of misrepresenting what theElf actually said 7.5 years ago and creating a dangerous AE myth.
 
1.  Above a 10 mph delta difference, the possibility of the slower aircraft failing one of the many checks affecting the maneuver rating.  The greater the delta the greater the odds of failing the check.
 
2.  The speed of point (1) above which is checked is not the maximum speed of the aircraft model.  Nor is it the cruise speed of the aircraft model. It is a speed which takes into account many other factors including the altitude at which the combat between the two aircraft occurs.  Even the climb rates are taken into account.  And no, all the relevant factors have never been revealed, nor will they, by the devs.
 
3.  In the event that this check is failed, the maneuver rating at that altitude band of the slower aircraft may be reduced at most to 50%.
 
 
There is a lot which can be done to combat the P-47.  Air combat is a very complex matrix with many important.  Neither maneuver, nor speed, nor altitude are the only significant factors influencing the outcome.
 
Alfred

[Lowpe]

Thanks so much Alfred. I have often wondered about the 70mph rule...seems so fixed, simplistic and arbitrary in such a deep game. But Pax is usually so right.[:)]

I knew the maneuver rating reduction wasn't a static number, and it is bandied across a wide band in other threads.

One other thing that helps in fighting Jugs, is to fight them in their extended range if possible.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

There is no 50mph or 70 mph speed differential cut off threshold.  This thread is in serious danger of misrepresenting what theElf actually said 7.5 years ago and creating a dangerous AE myth.

1.  Above a 10 mph delta difference, the possibility of the slower aircraft failing one of the many checks affecting the maneuver rating.  The greater the delta the greater the odds of failing the check.

2.  The speed of point (1) above which is checked is not the maximum speed of the aircraft model.  Nor is it the cruise speed of the aircraft model. It is a speed which takes into account many other factors including the altitude at which the combat between the two aircraft occurs.  Even the climb rates are taken into account.  And no, all the relevant factors have never been revealed, nor will they, by the devs.

3.  In the event that this check is failed, the maneuver rating at that altitude band of the slower aircraft may be reduced at most to 50%.


There is a lot which can be done to combat the P-47.  Air combat is a very complex matrix with many important.  Neither maneuver, nor speed, nor altitude are the only significant factors influencing the outcome.

Alfred

Cool.

But still, faster = better in general.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Fighting the Jugs with these planes try:

Put the Zeroes at 3K, 30/20 (CAP/Rest). Use only one squadron (they are bait).

Layer the Tonies and the Tojo starting at 6K and go up to 9K. Keep the Tonies on the lower end of the spectrum, and run all these groups at 40/20. Don't go above 9k.

All fighters to range 0.

The Zeroes will get butchered most times, but you will start to drop Jugs. With these frames I suspect your losses will be 3-1 or slightly less. Make sure you are using your very best fighters in the Tojo.

Make sure you have radar, radar, and more radar.

Do the math: you want fighters that are not 70mph slower; with CL cannons preferably; high maneuver; great pilots a2a and def; 200+ planes; great squadron leaders; radar; big airfields with plentiful supply and support on railroads; watch plane fatigue, pilot fatigue, morale.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you want Frank A, Tony d or better, George and Jack can provide cannons but keep them protected from the dive (especially the 2nd Jack I think is too slow). The bait squadron needs to have very high defense pilots or just use throw aways.

If the bombers come, even your fighters at 3K will fight them given enough radars...

No reason to play the high altitude game. After several encounters like this, you will see the Allies drop their sweeping altitude for a number of reasons.

To this I only say.... ew . I'm not saying that it isn't working/hasn't worked for you, just that I would not pick those particular altitudes or those particular CAP settings. I find your low altitude fetish interesting, but don't think it is the only or the best way - particularly with later planes that have the same maneuver ratings all the way up to 20k or even 30k: in essence you could pick anything within that range and don't need to stay down at 9k or 15k (although you may want to anticipate some climb if you intend to always remain below that top altitude for your desired maneuver rating). Or rather, I would submit that if 3K/6K/9K is working for you, why wouldn't 9/12/15 or 8/12/16 or something similar also work - and which are also better at defending against attacks that are not stratosweeps only?

When you set to 30% CAP and 20% Rest, can you say with certainty what those other 50% of the planes are doing? If you know you're going to take a sweep on that day, you should be setting to 80% CAP (and either 0% or 20% Rest, I don't think it matters in this case). If you're defending for "on any given day but I don't know which day", then maybe don't do the 80% for higher SR planes or if you notice pilots/planes becoming fatigued, etc...

Also, about even the Zeroes at 3K defending against bombers - sure, maybe, but they're at a distinct disadvantage as they first have to climb, which cuts into the time available to shoot at the bombers before they reach the base. Detection time vs. climb rate.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Fighting the Jugs with these planes try:

Put the Zeroes at 3K, 30/20 (CAP/Rest). Use only one squadron (they are bait).

Layer the Tonies and the Tojo starting at 6K and go up to 9K. Keep the Tonies on the lower end of the spectrum, and run all these groups at 40/20. Don't go above 9k.

All fighters to range 0.

The Zeroes will get butchered most times, but you will start to drop Jugs. With these frames I suspect your losses will be 3-1 or slightly less. Make sure you are using your very best fighters in the Tojo.

Make sure you have radar, radar, and more radar.

Do the math: you want fighters that are not 70mph slower; with CL cannons preferably; high maneuver; great pilots a2a and def; 200+ planes; great squadron leaders; radar; big airfields with plentiful supply and support on railroads; watch plane fatigue, pilot fatigue, morale.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you want Frank A, Tony d or better, George and Jack can provide cannons but keep them protected from the dive (especially the 2nd Jack I think is too slow). The bait squadron needs to have very high defense pilots or just use throw aways.

If the bombers come, even your fighters at 3K will fight them given enough radars...

No reason to play the high altitude game. After several encounters like this, you will see the Allies drop their sweeping altitude for a number of reasons.

To this I only say.... ew . I'm not saying that it isn't working/hasn't worked for you, just that I would not pick those particular altitudes or those particular CAP settings. I find your low altitude fetish interesting, but don't think it is the only or the best way - particularly with later planes that have the same maneuver ratings all the way up to 20k or even 30k: in essence you could pick anything within that range and don't need to stay down at 9k or 15k (although you may want to anticipate some climb if you intend to always remain below that top altitude for your desired maneuver rating). Or rather, I would submit that if 3K/6K/9K is working for you, why wouldn't 9/12/15 or 8/12/16 or something similar also work - and which are also better at defending against attacks that are not stratosweeps only?

When you set to 30% CAP and 20% Rest, can you say with certainty what those other 50% of the planes are doing? If you know you're going to take a sweep on that day, you should be setting to 80% CAP (and either 0% or 20% Rest, I don't think it matters in this case). If you're defending for "on any given day but I don't know which day", then maybe don't do the 80% for higher SR planes or if you notice pilots/planes becoming fatigued, etc...

Also, about even the Zeroes at 3K defending against bombers - sure, maybe, but they're at a distinct disadvantage as they first have to climb, which cuts into the time available to shoot at the bombers before they reach the base. Detection time vs. climb rate.

I agree with most of what Loka is saying here, but 80% is a bit high to sustain over several days or to keep fighters around for later bombing strikes. I have used higher settings for groups, but usually try CAP 50-70/10 rest. Different groups might have different settings, like the low bait group set to a lower CAP % and one or two ace groups set to a higher %.

Depends a lot on what is there, what the opponent's tendencies are, but I think we're discussing large field protection with multiple groups, right?