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Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/10/2016 4:26:17 PM   
Lasarian


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What's the most effective aircraft to embark on an escort carrier to combat enemy subs? What weapon type? Does the game engine assume the targets are submerged, on the surface or at persiscope depth? Are any effective? Or should we stick to ASW escorts like the Kaibokan ships and forget escort carriers for that purpose? Thanks.
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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/10/2016 4:51:36 PM   
Alpha77

 

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I had set mostly a portion of the torpedo bombers to asw. On transit a bigger portion - but if I expect air/surface action a very small portion (only 10% of a unit in this case, but would switch some of the floatplanes in the fleet also to asw instead serach)

IE, for Allies I used Avengers for Japan Kates. I trained them also up a bit for asw if time and/or "the enemy" permits. Job is to distract subs so the CV force can carry out their primary mission (which is not asw ). Japan also has some floatplane carriers a percent of these also can do asw.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/10/2016 5:54:18 PM >

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/10/2016 5:00:08 PM   
Lokasenna


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Torpedo bombers with their 2x bombs. Jills, Kates, and TBF/TBM are good ASW planes.

Just as important is your pilot skill level in ASW (and NavSearch), however.

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/10/2016 5:03:32 PM   
dr.hal


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I think the more interesting question to ask is what do the PILOTS of effective ASW aircraft look like. It is quite often the pilot that makes the aircraft effective, not the other way around....

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/10/2016 5:06:58 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I think the more interesting question to ask is what do the PILOTS of effective ASW aircraft look like. It is quite often the pilot that makes the aircraft effective, not the other way around....


Is that not quite clear ? High exp, high asw. Also low nav may be important (to actually attack subs and not only find them). Search is of minor importance as you know search has 50% reduced chance to find subs. With above criteria a lot of subs are found (for me). Sometimes also attacked, seldom sunk - but forced back to base.

In the early stages finding subs might be enough to reroute your way out of danger. But you also need to sink subs, otherwise they will swarm you in the middle-late game, right?

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/10/2016 6:09:43 PM >

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/10/2016 5:49:24 PM   
dr.hal


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Well in truth Alpha, it seems clear to you (obviously), but it might not be so clear to others. The question posed was about aircraft... and in truth I think just about any aircraft that carries ordnance can be a sub killer. What makes that aircraft effective however is the pilot behind the stick. But the real value in ASW patrols is not in sinking subs, it is in making it impossible for them to make an attack. One can have hundreds of subs at sea but if they can't get close to a target, then they are really just wasted expensive cigar tubes....

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/10/2016 6:07:43 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Well in truth Alpha, it seems clear to you (obviously), but it might not be so clear to others. The question posed was about aircraft... and in truth I think just about any aircraft that carries ordnance can be a sub killer. What makes that aircraft effective however is the pilot behind the stick. But the real value in ASW patrols is not in sinking subs, it is in making it impossible for them to make an attack. One can have hundreds of subs at sea but if they can't get close to a target, then they are really just wasted expensive cigar tubes....


Dr. Hal is correct. I use whatever platform is available.

No matter the platform, you won't get consistent reports of attacks and hits until ASW skill gets to around 65.

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/10/2016 6:33:10 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Well in truth Alpha, it seems clear to you (obviously), but it might not be so clear to others. The question posed was about aircraft... and in truth I think just about any aircraft that carries ordnance can be a sub killer. What makes that aircraft effective however is the pilot behind the stick. But the real value in ASW patrols is not in sinking subs, it is in making it impossible for them to make an attack. One can have hundreds of subs at sea but if they can't get close to a target, then they are really just wasted expensive cigar tubes....


Agreed, but a 50 or 100kg bomb will not do much damage...

Btw: You said, "might not be so clear" regarding pilots skills. Which other skill(s) you suggest then for asw I did not name?

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/10/2016 7:45:35 PM >

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/10/2016 7:01:19 PM   
dr.hal


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I think the other skill that plays a part is "LowN" or low altitude navigation, in that you can't hit something that's out of sight. In my view, you need to patrol at low level (1K) so that your aircraft can drop to 100 feet in its attack (which is part of the 1K search profile). I think you are right that the bigger the bomb the more chance of success, but in truth success is stopping an attack and the gravy is sinking the sub... so a 50kg bomb can be just as effective as a 500kg bomb in relation to the latter. I quite often use P-40Es (P-40Bs do NOT have this capability) in the first few months of the war as ship killers (although I have not used them as sub killers, but it might be a good idea) as they carry a 500pd bomb and if trained (combat being the most effective trainer) can nail LOTS of ships, especially large slow targets such as xAKs or xAPs.....

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/10/2016 7:07:34 PM   
Alpha77

 

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Well I can tell I opened up an older turn (AI) from a month back of my point of time. I saw quite a lot of subs in PH damaged, most of them 250kg bomb. Death charge and 100kg rare. But the DC rate may improve if more ships get the model2 DC which is almost as good as the Allied ones. While the 95 model DCs are mostly "crap".

I also tried the low level attacks on ships you describe and it really works for both sides. However the Japanese have only the Nick which can do this with success. Later they get better planes. The Allies can use also Hurries with the 4 cannon that one :) And Beaufighters etc.

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/10/2016 7:43:13 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I think the more interesting question to ask is what do the PILOTS of effective ASW aircraft look like. It is quite often the pilot that makes the aircraft effective, not the other way around....


Is that not quite clear ? High exp, high asw. Also low nav may be important (to actually attack subs and not only find them). Search is of minor importance as you know search has 50% reduced chance to find subs. With above criteria a lot of subs are found (for me). Sometimes also attacked, seldom sunk - but forced back to base.

In the early stages finding subs might be enough to reroute your way out of danger. But you also need to sink subs, otherwise they will swarm you in the middle-late game, right?


It's been stated several times that LowN and NavB do not affect ASW attacks. It is solely ASW skill. I mentioned NavSearch because often you will be using the same pilots to conduct both ASW and Search missions.

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/10/2016 7:43:52 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Well in truth Alpha, it seems clear to you (obviously), but it might not be so clear to others. The question posed was about aircraft... and in truth I think just about any aircraft that carries ordnance can be a sub killer. What makes that aircraft effective however is the pilot behind the stick. But the real value in ASW patrols is not in sinking subs, it is in making it impossible for them to make an attack. One can have hundreds of subs at sea but if they can't get close to a target, then they are really just wasted expensive cigar tubes....


Agreed, but a 50 or 100kg bomb will not do much damage...

Btw: You said, "might not be so clear" regarding pilots skills. Which other skill(s) you suggest then for asw I did not name?


I've lost subs (and xAKs...) to 60kg bombs from Jakes. It can happen.

More often, 250kg bombs are the killers.

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/10/2016 7:44:58 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Well I can tell I opened up an older turn (AI) from a month back of my point of time. I saw quite a lot of subs in PH damaged, most of them 250kg bomb. Death charge and 100kg rare. But the DC rate may improve if more ships get the model2 DC which is almost as good as the Allied ones. While the 95 model DCs are mostly "crap".

I also tried the low level attacks on ships you describe and it really works for both sides. However the Japanese have only the Nick which can do this with success. Later they get better planes. The Allies can use also Hurries with the 4 cannon that one :) And Beaufighters etc.


This could just as easily be a function of the subs encountering 250kg bombs more often than 100kg or depth charges.

Also note that a detected sub is less likely to attempt an attack.

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/10/2016 8:29:38 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I think the other skill that plays a part is "LowN" or low altitude navigation, in that you can't hit something that's out of sight. In my view, you need to patrol at low level (1K) so that your aircraft can drop to 100 feet in its attack (which is part of the 1K search profile). I think you are right that the bigger the bomb the more chance of success, but in truth success is stopping an attack and the gravy is sinking the sub... so a 50kg bomb can be just as effective as a 500kg bomb in relation to the latter. I quite often use P-40Es (P-40Bs do NOT have this capability) in the first few months of the war as ship killers (although I have not used them as sub killers, but it might be a good idea) as they carry a 500pd bomb and if trained (combat being the most effective trainer) can nail LOTS of ships, especially large slow targets such as xAKs or xAPs.....


LowN is Low Altitude Naval Attack, not Navigation.

IIRC Alfred has chimed in before on what skills count in ASW and I was surprised by the ones that don't count, just don't want to misquote what I can't remember exactly.

I don't think LowN counts as ASW takes its place. I don't recall if Alfred stated that Nav Search doesn't count either, being replaced by ASW.

Defense will certainly count for avoiding flak in low level attacks.

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/10/2016 8:38:54 PM   
dr.hal


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Well I sit corrected then!!!! But I was under the impression that for a aircraft to attack at 100 feet (low NAVAL attack) it had either to be placed there at the beginning of the turn or its pilot sees an opportunity to descend to that altitude to attack (little or no flak). I was assuming that this goes for subs as well... maybe not. The P-40Es I mentioned DO descend to 100 feet (as I always place that at 1K in this instance) and nail targets with their 50 cal guns as well...which would not happen at 1K feet. Although I've not seen this done with subs, I assumed (wrongly as it would appear) that the same could be done with subs as is done with surface craft (because at this stage of an event, the sub is obviously on the surface). Sorry for the misleading information! Hal

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/11/2016 12:05:56 AM   
jcjordan

 

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Just positing but would not naval search come into play 1st in that someone has to spot the sub first to get DL up before a ASW attack would occur. So both NS & ASW come into play just not necessarily the same pilot but do agree a high skill in both make it happen but my general broad spectrum results seem more toward having a unit on NS that end up attacking being better than a unit on ASW

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/11/2016 1:11:29 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lasarian

What's the most effective aircraft to embark on an escort carrier to combat enemy subs?

The bombers you already have embarked on the CVE which are carrier capable. There is zero point in having non carrier capable bombers embarked as they won't search. For anti-submarine operations, the only worthwhile differentiation between aircraft models is whether they are equipped with a search radar. The really important thing is not aircraft model but having skilled pilots.

What weapon type?

Basically irrelevant. The first thing you need is to actually achieve a hit and that is dependent on pilot skills, not on weapon type. Even with a hit achieved, there is no guarantee that results in any damage to the submarine. a hit with a smaller warhead is better than no hit with a larger warhead.

Does the game engine assume the targets are submerged, on the surface or at persiscope depth?

Sub TFs are submerged unless you are notified they have come to the surface. There are no air dropped depth charges so there is no correlation between maximum diving depth of sub and your air dropped bomb.

Are any effective?

Any what?

Or should we stick to ASW escorts like the Kaibokan ships and forget escort carriers for that purpose?

Correct. Use of CVEs as ASW platforms is much overrated by players.

Thanks.


Alfred

< Message edited by Alfred -- 2/11/2016 2:12:55 AM >

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/11/2016 1:31:30 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I think the other skill that plays a part is "LowN" or low altitude navigation, in that you can't hit something that's out of sight. In my view, you need to patrol at low level (1K) so that your aircraft can drop to 100 feet in its attack (which is part of the 1K search profile). I think you are right that the bigger the bomb the more chance of success, but in truth success is stopping an attack and the gravy is sinking the sub... so a 50kg bomb can be just as effective as a 500kg bomb in relation to the latter. I quite often use P-40Es (P-40Bs do NOT have this capability) in the first few months of the war as ship killers (although I have not used them as sub killers, but it might be a good idea) as they carry a 500pd bomb and if trained (combat being the most effective trainer) can nail LOTS of ships, especially large slow targets such as xAKs or xAPs.....


LowN is Low Altitude Naval Attack, not Navigation.

IIRC Alfred has chimed in before on what skills count in ASW and I was surprised by the ones that don't count, just don't want to misquote what I can't remember exactly.

I don't think LowN counts as ASW takes its place. I don't recall if Alfred stated that Nav Search doesn't count either, being replaced by ASW.

Defense will certainly count for avoiding flak in low level attacks.


Hans is correct.

1. Air units tasked with the ASW mission, the only relevant skill employed by the pilots is ASW.

2. Air units tasked with the Naval Search mission, the only relevant skill employed by the pilots is Naval Search.

3. If you want to locate and prosecute an air attack on subs, you should be on the ASW mission. What players seem to forget is that a sub patrol Task Force IS a task force and therefore, as A task force, it may be spotted by Naval Search. But aircraft on naval search are not as efficient nor effective in finding or prosecuting an anti-sub attack than if they are on an ASW mission.

4. The size of the bomb is not really a useful metric. The first thing you have to do is actually achieve a hit, and that is dependent on pilot skill (see point 3 above re pilot ASW skill), not on size of bomb. The second thing is that a detected sub TF is much less likely to pose a threat and detection has absolutely no correlation to bomb size.

5. Fighters (and attack bombers) are not going to drop to 100' to attack a submarine. Fighters on a naval attack mission do not attack sub TFs; they cannot be assigned either a Naval Search or ASW mission which are the air missions which can interfere with a sub TF. It therefore follows the Low Naval pilot skill is not used.

Alfred

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/11/2016 1:42:42 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

Just positing but would not naval search come into play 1st in that someone has to spot the sub first to get DL up before a ASW attack would occur. So both NS & ASW come into play just not necessarily the same pilot but do agree a high skill in both make it happen but my general broad spectrum results seem more toward having a unit on NS that end up attacking being better than a unit on ASW

Naval Search is supposed to cover a broad and lengthy stretch of ocean fairly quickly - thus the recommended altitude is 6000 feet to see ships at a fair distance - but would be too high to spot a sub periscope feather unless it was dead calm. A surfaced sub might be seen if within a few miles of the search aircraft or if the search was carried out at an altitude more like 3000 feet (which makes the visible horizon only a few miles anyway).
Search aircraft can make attacks but usually the sub spots the aircraft and dives before it can make the attack. SBDs seem to be relatively good at making attacks because they can dive quickly from search altitude.

ASW is a more localized activity where subs are the expected target, so missions are flown lower (to spot periscopes) and the area covered is much less because the visible path is not so broad as Naval Search. Included in ASW is the attack skill for attacking subs (which are more maneuverable than most ships). So you CAN spot and attack with only ASW skill, but your chances for doing so are better if there is already a D/L on the sub from NavS or your own ships. And as Alfred said, radar will help in locating the sub too.

Other skills like LowN, NavB and NavT may not directly help get ASW results, but they contribute to the Experience factor which helps with everything.

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/11/2016 4:41:33 PM   
jamesjohns

 

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As others said, the pilot skill in ASW is what matters. My approach is to take anything that is second-line aircraft not used for training and have them do ASW at 1,000 feet. Radar makes a difference and I'll try to use radar equiped planes but those usually aren't an option until later

Next, I look at distance (longer search patterns) and then servability rating. Bomb load is one of the last things I look at. (even toss a grenade out the window is fine with me) I just want the detection levels on the subs to be raised, remain high or cause the sub to get out of the way/dive/break the contact/run away If it is around my ports, espi. larger ports I have surface ASW ships patrolling and reacting to try and make the kills. Planes do the spotting, ships do the killing


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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/11/2016 5:06:41 PM   
ny59giants_MatrixForum


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As Allied player, I use those small 4 or 5 plane HQ groups of various bomber types on ASW duty until they are withdrawn. Due to their small size they train up fairly quickly.

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/11/2016 6:09:03 PM   
Lasarian


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Thanks for all the replies, guys, that was really useful. Appreciated.

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/11/2016 6:42:53 PM   
crsutton


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Pretty simple. You want aircraft that carry 500lb (250kg) bombs. Good range and high ASW experience. All other things are just fluff. It is the big bombs that kill subs. I mix the altitude between 1,000 and 4,000 feet but I don't we any real difference.

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/11/2016 7:39:18 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Pretty simple. You want aircraft that carry 500lb (250kg) bombs. Good range and high ASW experience. All other things are just fluff.

Radar/MAD are not fluff , makes ASW considerably more efficient

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RE: Best a/c to attack subs? - 2/12/2016 1:09:58 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Pretty simple. You want aircraft that carry 500lb (250kg) bombs. Good range and high ASW experience. All other things are just fluff.

Radar/MAD are not fluff , makes ASW considerably more efficient


I don't know about "considerably", but they do affect it.

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