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Fixed torpedo tubes in Battleships and Cruisers

 
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Fixed torpedo tubes in Battleships and Cruisers - 1/27/2016 4:15:32 AM   
Dili

 

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Example Rodney, Nelson and older ships.
Ideas how to deal with them? they should have a less hit chance, even more because the ships that have them are old so i think the only way is to have a special torpedo.
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RE: Fixed torpedo tubes in Battleships and Cruisers - 2/12/2016 11:37:42 PM   
Hotschi


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The Nelson-Class battleships had indeed "special" torpedoes, the 24.5 inch Mark I (other RN surface ships and submarine torpedoes were 21 inch).

Some technical data according to Friedman, The British Battleship 1906-1946; estimated weight was 5340lb, length 26ft 4.5 inch. Nominal range was 20,000 yds at 30 knots and 15,000 yds at 35 knots.

Both ships had one tube on each side of the bow, apparently firing forward ("angled out" according to a caption in the book mentioned above). Nelson had her tubes removed sometimes in 1941 or 1942, although other sources say this wasn't the case.

Wikipedia gives different data about size, although it states the warhead being 743 pounds (337 kg) TNT.

Haven't looked closer about the tubes of the other pre-WW II battleships, and need to read more about modernizations. I will also check what I can dig up about RN cruisers in Friedman's other book.

How to deal with them? I don't know whether old age of ships makes a difference. I think, in the case of fixed underwater tubes, it's the manoeuverability of the ships which matters. Would a battleship deliberatly turn it's bow in the direction of an enemy ship just to fire torpedoes? Or was it rather a "weapon of opportunity", as seen in the case of Rodney firing torpedoes at Bismarck when she crossed her bow...

_____________________________

"A big butcher's bill is not necessarily evidence of good tactics"

- Wavell's reply to Churchill, after the latter complained about faint-heartedness, as he discovered that British casualties in the evacuation from Somaliland had been only 260 men.

(in reply to Dili)
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RE: Fixed torpedo tubes in Battleships and Cruisers - 2/13/2016 3:10:33 AM   
Dili

 

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Yeah, but it has to have much less odds of hit, and the 10 degree angle of those in Nelsons even makes it more difficult to say they are "front" in editor. I mean they can't be fired simultaneously unless at very short range.

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RE: Fixed torpedo tubes in Battleships and Cruisers - 2/14/2016 12:04:13 PM   
Skyland


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On french old 23500t battleships, the 450mm underwater tubes were fixed, 2 firing to port side and 2 to starboard.
Seems more logical to me for this kind of ship.

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RE: Fixed torpedo tubes in Battleships and Cruisers - 2/24/2016 10:55:48 PM   
spence

 

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In the IJN's most super-duper "torpedo victory" they scored 6 hits out of 44 torpedoes launched: =13.6% scored. Thereafter they fired an additional 16 torpedoes to cover their retreat for zero hits (that doesn't help their average any).

Meanwhile HMS Rodney fired 12 torpedoes at the Bismarck scoring one hit: =8.3% (apparently Rodney carried reloads too - and they were protected by a good deal of armor unlike their IJN counterparts).

It would seem that Rodney's hit percentage is in the same ball park as that of a IJN destroyer division. Are singular events (PH torpedo hit%, sinking the PoW and Repulse) such as Rodney's torpedo hit on Bismarck only valid when the IJN's prowess is under consideration?

< Message edited by spence -- 2/24/2016 10:56:42 PM >

(in reply to Dili)
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RE: Fixed torpedo tubes in Battleships and Cruisers - 2/25/2016 5:04:01 AM   
el cid again

 

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Adding to the history, a Japanese student in Britain got wind of the use of oxygen in these torpedoes - leading to the
Japanese development of oxygen torpedoes. But the British ones only had slightly enriched oxygen, which the Japanese
did not realize - so they developed pure oxygen versions - which had even better performance (and some technical
problems). Some sources regard these as "side firing torpedoes" rather than forward as such. So the "angled" description
cited below makes some sense. They were not regarded as effective and apparently were never fired in anger. They might
matter, however, if a battleship was used as a commerce raider - to sink a large ship without spending a lot of
artillery to do it - once it was disabled. Being ineffective, not putting them in may be better modeling.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

The Nelson-Class battleships had indeed "special" torpedoes, the 24.5 inch Mark I (other RN surface ships and submarine torpedoes were 21 inch).

Some technical data according to Friedman, The British Battleship 1906-1946; estimated weight was 5340lb, length 26ft 4.5 inch. Nominal range was 20,000 yds at 30 knots and 15,000 yds at 35 knots.

Both ships had one tube on each side of the bow, apparently firing forward ("angled out" according to a caption in the book mentioned above). Nelson had her tubes removed sometimes in 1941 or 1942, although other sources say this wasn't the case.

Wikipedia gives different data about size, although it states the warhead being 743 pounds (337 kg) TNT.

Haven't looked closer about the tubes of the other pre-WW II battleships, and need to read more about modernizations. I will also check what I can dig up about RN cruisers in Friedman's other book.

How to deal with them? I don't know whether old age of ships makes a difference. I think, in the case of fixed underwater tubes, it's the manoeuverability of the ships which matters. Would a battleship deliberatly turn it's bow in the direction of an enemy ship just to fire torpedoes? Or was it rather a "weapon of opportunity", as seen in the case of Rodney firing torpedoes at Bismarck when she crossed her bow...


(in reply to Hotschi)
Post #: 6
RE: Fixed torpedo tubes in Battleships and Cruisers - 2/25/2016 5:04:58 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Yeah, but it has to have much less odds of hit, and the 10 degree angle of those in Nelsons even makes it more difficult to say they are "front" in editor. I mean they can't be fired simultaneously unless at very short range.



So call it a single tube with two shots! That might work well.

(in reply to Dili)
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RE: Fixed torpedo tubes in Battleships and Cruisers - 2/25/2016 3:01:23 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

In the IJN's most super-duper "torpedo victory" they scored 6 hits out of 44 torpedoes launched: =13.6% scored. Thereafter they fired an additional 16 torpedoes to cover their retreat for zero hits (that doesn't help their average any).

Meanwhile HMS Rodney fired 12 torpedoes at the Bismarck scoring one hit: =8.3% (apparently Rodney carried reloads too - and they were protected by a good deal of armor unlike their IJN counterparts).

It would seem that Rodney's hit percentage is in the same ball park as that of a IJN destroyer division. Are singular events (PH torpedo hit%, sinking the PoW and Repulse) such as Rodney's torpedo hit on Bismarck only valid when the IJN's prowess is under consideration?


So you compare the incomparable? Launch circumstances matter.
Besides torpedo hit is not confirmed, second Bismarck was barely moving and we don't know the firing distance if it hit, day or night.

About that armored protection, there was none in Nelsons protecting the torpedo launchers their tubes were outside hull armored box. They had 4 reloads. Other sources say 5.
When a 18" Italian air launched torpedo hit in an adjacent compartment it wasn't pretty: Photo

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTBR_PreWWII.htm



---------------
El Cid that is what i did.

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 8
RE: Fixed torpedo tubes in Battleships and Cruisers - 2/27/2016 6:39:05 AM   
el cid again

 

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Concur with Dili. Not enough data to be statistically valid, nor even indicative. Apparently one can
hit a nearly dead in the water target at point blank range. Go figure. Surely it was not nearly as high a PK
as a destroyer.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

In the IJN's most super-duper "torpedo victory" they scored 6 hits out of 44 torpedoes launched: =13.6% scored. Thereafter they fired an additional 16 torpedoes to cover their retreat for zero hits (that doesn't help their average any).

Meanwhile HMS Rodney fired 12 torpedoes at the Bismarck scoring one hit: =8.3% (apparently Rodney carried reloads too - and they were protected by a good deal of armor unlike their IJN counterparts).

It would seem that Rodney's hit percentage is in the same ball park as that of a IJN destroyer division. Are singular events (PH torpedo hit%, sinking the PoW and Repulse) such as Rodney's torpedo hit on Bismarck only valid when the IJN's prowess is under consideration?


So you compare the incomparable? Launch circumstances matter.
Besides torpedo hit is not confirmed, second Bismarck was barely moving and we don't know the firing distance if it hit, day or night.

About that armored protection, there was none in Nelsons protecting the torpedo launchers their tubes were outside hull armored box. They had 4 reloads. Other sources say 5.
When a 18" Italian air launched torpedo hit in an adjacent compartment it wasn't pretty: Photo

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTBR_PreWWII.htm



---------------
El Cid that is what i did.


(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 9
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