Assuming Scen 1 or equivalents.
A. How long can the J economy ignore not taking Palemburg? When would it crash? And before that...How long would it be before players change their production plans in worry?
B. Are resources every a bottle neck? Are supplies a bottle neck? Or is just fuel/oil?
Just trying to understand the misery of a non boosted Japanese economy.
Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
A. It all depends on how keen you are on your production. If you haven't got it (and the question is why the hell not? 
)then you are going to have to do some serious belt tightening if you want the game to last longer than a year. I suspect (though haven't seen it) that you'd start to collapse after that. Pax or others would know for sure.
B. Not if set up your convoys properly. You only really start to struggle when you get cut off from the DEI
)then you are going to have to do some serious belt tightening if you want the game to last longer than a year. I suspect (though haven't seen it) that you'd start to collapse after that. Pax or others would know for sure.B. Not if set up your convoys properly. You only really start to struggle when you get cut off from the DEI
RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
ORIGINAL: morejeffs
Assuming Scen 1 or equivalents.
A. How long can the J economy ignore not taking Palemburg? When would it crash? And before that...How long would it be before players change their production plans in worry?
There is absolutely no simple answer to this question. It depends so much on whether the Japanese player is a really strong (Grandmaster level) or just an average player. Also depends on whether he is focussed on implementing a good strategic plan or is one of the typical Japanese payers who mistakes irrelevant pyrotechnic tactical forays for proper strategy.
A weak player will need Palembang within 3-4 months. A grandmaster level player can survive until mid 1943 without capturing Palembang. The other oilfields captured in a timely manner will more than suffice. This requires proper use of the navy which is not to sail continuously in search of tactical pyrotechnic opportunities which provide no lasting strategic benefit. It also means knowing what you are doing with Japanese industry and not being seduced by the potential new toys.
B. Are resources every a bottle neck? Are supplies a bottle neck? Or is just fuel/oil?
Supplies are always a bottleneck. More specifically getting supplies, fuel and oil to the correct places is usually the problem. This game is about logistics, not the pyrotechnic actions which so many players indulge in. Managing the demand curve, not the supply curve, is central to playing Japan well.
Just trying to understand the misery of a non boosted Japanese economy.
Alfred
RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
There is nothing simple about the Japanese economy. As Alfred has pointed out the needs are driven by your strategy and your use of your forces, and decisions about the economy require at least a fuzzy crystal ball picture of how you expect the war to unfold.
That said, a number of players have posted very good aids to the new IJ player such as the economy flow chart, and starting (turn 1) settings for every unit. Search the forum War Room to find these nuggets, or look for the thread listing all the references for new players.
That said, a number of players have posted very good aids to the new IJ player such as the economy flow chart, and starting (turn 1) settings for every unit. Search the forum War Room to find these nuggets, or look for the thread listing all the references for new players.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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RogerJNeilson
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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
Love that comment 'pyrotechnic tactical forays' a gem!
Roger
Roger
An unplanned dynasty: Roger Neilson, Roger Neilson 11, Roger Neilson 3 previous posts 898+1515 + 1126 = 3539.....Finally completed my game which started the day WITP:AE was released
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RichardAckermann
- Posts: 270
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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
Yea, Alfred is so very right. Cruising around for killing ships of minor importance can leave you dry at the worst possible moment.
I was playing on the very hard AI level a long time plus it's my first game ever and that slowed my progress down due to extreme losses in all kinds of combat. Took me 8 months to capture singapore and palembang. And still I do not get that fuel because of the allied aircraft from Java.
I saved HI and fuel by turning off armament production if I had over 30K reserve. Some other things, too. Since I'm playing vs the AI, I do not have serious problems. The AI does not seem to exploit the situation.
How long a japanese can make it with low fuel also depends on the attrition you can do to him. Make him move his fleet around.
Resources are less a bottleneck to me. They are more abundant and can be moved by a lot of ships.
They can also be ferried over from korea or china where passage is considerably safer than from DEI all the way up north.
I was playing on the very hard AI level a long time plus it's my first game ever and that slowed my progress down due to extreme losses in all kinds of combat. Took me 8 months to capture singapore and palembang. And still I do not get that fuel because of the allied aircraft from Java.
I saved HI and fuel by turning off armament production if I had over 30K reserve. Some other things, too. Since I'm playing vs the AI, I do not have serious problems. The AI does not seem to exploit the situation.
How long a japanese can make it with low fuel also depends on the attrition you can do to him. Make him move his fleet around.
Resources are less a bottleneck to me. They are more abundant and can be moved by a lot of ships.
They can also be ferried over from korea or china where passage is considerably safer than from DEI all the way up north.
RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
To me, as the Japanese player, capturing Palembang in prime condition is a top priority... to me, even more important than Singapore. Singapore will fall eventually (as will the PI) but getting Palembang without disruption is a real feather in the economic cap (so to speak). From there you can have your own "pyrotechnic" display!
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GetAssista
- Posts: 2818
- Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:13 am
RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
Resources are hardly a problem, Korea+Hokkaido+Sakhalin can meet all the needs on their own given the shipment.
Purely from industrial balance, you have 355 days worth of oil and 340 days worth of fuel in Home Islands in Stock 1. But fuel can run out considerably faster of you run around a lot with your big combat ships.
Other than that, always listen to Alfred
Purely from industrial balance, you have 355 days worth of oil and 340 days worth of fuel in Home Islands in Stock 1. But fuel can run out considerably faster of you run around a lot with your big combat ships.
Other than that, always listen to Alfred
RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
ORIGINAL: Alfred
ORIGINAL: morejeffs
Assuming Scen 1 or equivalents.
A. How long can the J economy ignore not taking Palemburg? When would it crash? And before that...How long would it be before players change their production plans in worry?
There is absolutely no simple answer to this question. It depends so much on whether the Japanese player is a really strong (Grandmaster level) or just an average player. Also depends on whether he is focussed on implementing a good strategic plan or is one of the typical Japanese payers who mistakes irrelevant pyrotechnic tactical forays for proper strategy.
A weak player will need Palembang within 3-4 months. A grandmaster level player can survive until mid 1943 without capturing Palembang. The other oilfields captured in a timely manner will more than suffice. This requires proper use of the navy which is not to sail continuously in search of tactical pyrotechnic opportunities which provide no lasting strategic benefit. It also means knowing what you are doing with Japanese industry and not being seduced by the potential new toys.
B. Are resources every a bottle neck? Are supplies a bottle neck? Or is just fuel/oil?
Supplies are always a bottleneck. More specifically getting supplies, fuel and oil to the correct places is usually the problem. This game is about logistics, not the pyrotechnic actions which so many players indulge in. Managing the demand curve, not the supply curve, is central to playing Japan well.
Just trying to understand the misery of a non boosted Japanese economy.
Alfred
Alfred-
Now that's what I'm talking about; experienced, sage advice.
I know I am relatively inexperienced, but from day one in reading AARs I thought to myself, "The Japanese just extend themselves too far for little gain and major headaches.
Best Regards,
-Terry
P.S. Of course though, it sure is fun reading AARs wherein the Japanese just go nuts; like wanting all of Australia or Canada.
"No one throws me my own guns and tells me to run. No one."
-Bret (James Coburn); The Magnificent Seven
-Bret (James Coburn); The Magnificent Seven
RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
Thank you all for your answers and insight!
that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
+1ORIGINAL: dr.hal
To me, as the Japanese player, capturing Palembang in prime condition is a top priority... to me, even more important than Singapore. Singapore will fall eventually (as will the PI) but getting Palembang without disruption is a real feather in the economic cap (so to speak). From there you can have your own "pyrotechnic" display!
Pax
RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
Alfred's summary is correct, but few IJ players will ever leave Palembang alone for long. Having Palembang in hand early gives you far more tactical and strategic freedom. And as Hal said, getting it relatively undestroyed is crucial. You do NOT want to expend 1M supply rebuilding those oilfields.ORIGINAL: Alfred
ORIGINAL: morejeffs
Assuming Scen 1 or equivalents.
A. How long can the J economy ignore not taking Palemburg? When would it crash? And before that...How long would it be before players change their production plans in worry?
There is absolutely no simple answer to this question. It depends so much on whether the Japanese player is a really strong (Grandmaster level) or just an average player. Also depends on whether he is focussed on implementing a good strategic plan or is one of the typical Japanese payers who mistakes irrelevant pyrotechnic tactical forays for proper strategy.
A weak player will need Palembang within 3-4 months. A grandmaster level player can survive until mid 1943 without capturing Palembang. The other oilfields captured in a timely manner will more than suffice. This requires proper use of the navy which is not to sail continuously in search of tactical pyrotechnic opportunities which provide no lasting strategic benefit. It also means knowing what you are doing with Japanese industry and not being seduced by the potential new toys.
B. Are resources every a bottle neck? Are supplies a bottle neck? Or is just fuel/oil?
Supplies are always a bottleneck. More specifically getting supplies, fuel and oil to the correct places is usually the problem. This game is about logistics, not the pyrotechnic actions which so many players indulge in. Managing the demand curve, not the supply curve, is central to playing Japan well.
Just trying to understand the misery of a non boosted Japanese economy.
Alfred
Most experienced IJ players want to secure Palembang early, a major target for Jan '42.
Pax
RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
Alfred's summary is correct, but few IJ players will ever leave Palembang alone for long. Having Palembang in hand early gives you far more tactical and strategic freedom. And as Hal said, getting it relatively undestroyed is crucial. You do NOT want to expend 1M supply rebuilding those oilfields.ORIGINAL: Alfred
ORIGINAL: morejeffs
Assuming Scen 1 or equivalents.
A. How long can the J economy ignore not taking Palemburg? When would it crash? And before that...How long would it be before players change their production plans in worry?
There is absolutely no simple answer to this question. It depends so much on whether the Japanese player is a really strong (Grandmaster level) or just an average player. Also depends on whether he is focussed on implementing a good strategic plan or is one of the typical Japanese payers who mistakes irrelevant pyrotechnic tactical forays for proper strategy.
A weak player will need Palembang within 3-4 months. A grandmaster level player can survive until mid 1943 without capturing Palembang. The other oilfields captured in a timely manner will more than suffice. This requires proper use of the navy which is not to sail continuously in search of tactical pyrotechnic opportunities which provide no lasting strategic benefit. It also means knowing what you are doing with Japanese industry and not being seduced by the potential new toys.
B. Are resources every a bottle neck? Are supplies a bottle neck? Or is just fuel/oil?
Supplies are always a bottleneck. More specifically getting supplies, fuel and oil to the correct places is usually the problem. This game is about logistics, not the pyrotechnic actions which so many players indulge in. Managing the demand curve, not the supply curve, is central to playing Japan well.
Just trying to understand the misery of a non boosted Japanese economy.
Alfred
Most experienced IJ players want to secure Palembang early, a major target for Jan '42.
I have a short question, so the Allied engs will tear down those fields correct ? Which means the earlier you get there the less destruction they may have caused. But also a hard combat in that hex will destroy industry. I needed to check, but Singapore was totally destryoed when I captured it and Palembang partly. Mili & Soerabaya were also damaged quite a lot. But therefore ZERO damage at Balikpapan & the neighbour town with also an oilfield.
RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
Yes, the longer you give an allied player to hold on to Palembang, the more dangerous it is for you.
The more engineers he can get to it, the more damage the facilities can take when you capture it.
Oh, and I think a shock attack is a big no no as well
The more engineers he can get to it, the more damage the facilities can take when you capture it.
Oh, and I think a shock attack is a big no no as well
RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
ORIGINAL: Encircled
Yes, the longer you give an allied player to hold on to Palembang, the more dangerous it is for you.
The more engineers he can get to it, the more damage the facilities can take when you capture it.
Oh, and I think a shock attack is a big no no as well
Yup, I learned that a little bit late, but vs. AI not so critical. However it is very costly both in time and supply to build up all the destroyed stuff. So in a new game I would certainly risk more and be faster in taking these locations. Also I play a scen which has no supply production by refs... which I also noted a bit late. But you can adapt, needs more shipping of course.
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FeurerKrieg
- Posts: 3398
- Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:43 pm
- Location: Denver, CO
RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
Facility damage - No shock attack, less Allied engineers help, but there is still a large random factor involved.
Palembang - If you can isolate Palembang so the Allies can't sit there and load up oil into tankers that you then sink, you can wait for a while to take it, probably late 42 early 43 assuming you have oil/fuel from other places coming in.
Resources being a bottleneck - They are not usually, however you can take a heavy LI strategy which will make resources more important and oil/fuel less important. Since it is easier to pull resources from Korea via the magic coast road, one could consider this approach as a way to extend supply production in the late war. However, it is a nuanced debate and it also tends to rely on your strategic plans. Going to India for example provides tremendous amounts of resources, whereas Australia not so much (to my knowledge).
No matter what, Alfred is spot on about managing the demand. Every month your fleet sits in port doing nothing is actually a big economic victory for you, assuming the Allies aren't making a mess things in the Empire.
Palembang - If you can isolate Palembang so the Allies can't sit there and load up oil into tankers that you then sink, you can wait for a while to take it, probably late 42 early 43 assuming you have oil/fuel from other places coming in.
Resources being a bottleneck - They are not usually, however you can take a heavy LI strategy which will make resources more important and oil/fuel less important. Since it is easier to pull resources from Korea via the magic coast road, one could consider this approach as a way to extend supply production in the late war. However, it is a nuanced debate and it also tends to rely on your strategic plans. Going to India for example provides tremendous amounts of resources, whereas Australia not so much (to my knowledge).
No matter what, Alfred is spot on about managing the demand. Every month your fleet sits in port doing nothing is actually a big economic victory for you, assuming the Allies aren't making a mess things in the Empire.
RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
No matter what, Alfred is spot on about managing the demand. Every month your fleet sits in port doing nothing is actually a big economic victory for you, assuming the Allies aren't making a mess things in the Empire.
This is true, big CVs the older BBs and Yamato eat a lot. I had sitting them in port for a while but AlliedS offensive ended this "peace" time for now for them. Rabaul needs lots of fuel
RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
The biggest drag is the port level at Palembang and Balikpapan being capped to mediocre levels.
RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
ORIGINAL: Mundy
The biggest drag is the port level at Palembang and Balikpapan being capped to mediocre levels.
It is annoying a lot of ship shuffling to and from port to get a size that can be docked [:(]
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FeurerKrieg
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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy
ORIGINAL: Alpha77
ORIGINAL: Mundy
The biggest drag is the port level at Palembang and Balikpapan being capped to mediocre levels.
It is annoying a lot of ship shuffling to and from port to get a size that can be docked [:(]
CS convoys are great for this stuff. Do you calculations on the the best ship sizes, and set you TFs to CS and away they go.
Also, for Palembang, be sure to drop a bunch of those shipping engineer units in there. They help the tankers load up faster. Unless those units are only in DBB - I can't recall since it has been a while since I played stock.