Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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mktours
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Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by mktours »

I can't understand why this feature is introduced. I guess nobody like to see Model's rating being cut after promotion.
I really hope this feature could be eliminated in wite 2.0.
chaos45
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by chaos45 »

It happens if you as the player promote the leaders. If you wait for the game to promote them to the appropriate rank you dont risk the skill loss.

If a leader does well in the game the game will auto promote them to the next rank eventually without the player doing it, or it will promote them on their historical dates of promotion from my understanding.

So you can be safe and wait...or just put them in a unit their current rank can handle and rack up wins hoping for the early promotion

or

Take a risk and promote early as the player.
SigUp
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by SigUp »

If I don't want Model's stats to drop I just don't use him as army commander until he has been auto-promoted. Easy as that. There is no reason for the players to get the optimal leader setup from the get-go without any penalty involved.
mktours
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: chaos45

It happens if you as the player promote the leaders. If you wait for the game to promote them to the appropriate rank you dont risk the skill loss.

If a leader does well in the game the game will auto promote them to the next rank eventually without the player doing it, or it will promote them on their historical dates of promotion from my understanding.

So you can be safe and wait...or just put them in a unit their current rank can handle and rack up wins hoping for the early promotion

or

Take a risk and promote early as the player.
There are many cases that when a army leader get promoted to a Army G leader, A high poli rating L.Gerenal like Model will be auto-promoted to be a army leader, in that case, Model's rating will drop.
I always promoted Kluge to OKH in T1, and most of the time, Model get auto-promoted to be the leader of 4th Army, and his rating drop in that case. That is why I am concerned with this feature.
mktours
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: SigUp

If I don't want Model's stats to drop I just don't use him as army commander until he has been auto-promoted. Easy as that. There is no reason for the players to get the optimal leader setup from the get-go without any penalty involved.
If you send Kluge to OKH, the system will auto-promote Model to 4th army, and his rating will drop, that doesn't make sense. The player could not prevent this from happening, it is done by the system.
So Kluge could not be send to other place by the player? Why?
I just hope a Model is still Model in the game. a Model minus is not what I want, since this is a history simulating game.

timmyab
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by timmyab »

I'm guessing the lowering of rating is to simulate promotion to a job that he doesn't have the experience to do as well as someone who has been doing it for a while. I think it's a good feature because, along with cost in APs for promotion, it gives some meaning to the ranking system.
SigUp
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by SigUp »

ORIGINAL: mktours

If you send Kluge to OKH, the system will auto-promote Model to 4th army, and his rating will drop, that doesn't make sense. The player could not prevent this from happening, it is done by the system.
So Kluge could not be send to other place by the player? Why?
I just hope a Model is still Model in the game. a Model minus is not what I want, since this is a history simulating game.
Then the issue that needs to be raised is the auto-choice for leader replacement and not the stats drop in general.
timmyab
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by timmyab »

Yes agreed. I would be in favor of a 'turn off auto replace leader' option.
mktours
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I'm guessing the lowering of rating is to simulate promotion to a job that he doesn't have the experience to do as well as someone who has been doing it for a while. I think it's a good feature because, along with cost in APs for promotion, it gives some meaning to the ranking system.
That is a point, but a leader like Model, his inf rating getting cut to 8, and it could not recover to 9 since it is higher than 6. That doesn't make sense.
mktours
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Yes agreed. I would be in favor of a 'turn off auto replace leader' option.
In some case, a leader get killed in combat or was dismissed in logistic phase, then the system must auto-replace the leader, so this option can't be turn off.
Cavalry Corp
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by Cavalry Corp »

In business - in my business people get promoted until they are unable to do the job - I like this feature. No one is as effective when taking on a promotion for a while.
mktours
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: cavalry

In business - in my business people get promoted until they are unable to do the job - I like this feature. No one is as effective when taking on a promotion for a while.
The problem is, once the rating get drop, it could not recover, so if Model get his inf rating cut to 8, he is no longer the best tactic leader we know in history. The change isn't "for a while", it last for the whole game. That is the matter.
What is the fun to play a history game when you know the rating of the best general is not correct?

One solution might be that such rating drop should be reverse after 3 turns of the promotion.
timmyab
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by timmyab »

ORIGINAL: cavalry

In business - in my business people get promoted until they are unable to do the job - I like this feature. No one is as effective when taking on a promotion for a while.
It's called 'The Peter principle'.
ORIGINAL: mktours
In some case, a leader get killed in combat or was dismissed in logistic phase, then the system must auto-replace the leader, so this option can't be turn off.
It could certainly be implemented somehow, whether it's worth the effort or not is another question.
Cavalry Corp
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by Cavalry Corp »

mk - sorry I see your point now...
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sillyflower
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by sillyflower »

ORIGINAL: mktours


If you send Kluge to OKH, the system will auto-promote Model to 4th army, and his rating will drop, that doesn't make sense. The player could not prevent this from happening, it is done by the system.
So Kluge could not be send to other place by the player? Why?
I just hope a Model is still Model in the game. a Model minus is not what I want, since this is a history simulating game.


Only unassigned leaders get jobs from the AI so put Model somewhere like 1 xxx first. Alternatively assign a leader to replace Kluge before giving him OKH
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by STEF78 »

ORIGINAL: mktours
One solution might be that such rating drop should be reverse after 3 turns of the promotion.
+1
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mktours
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

ORIGINAL: mktours


If you send Kluge to OKH, the system will auto-promote Model to 4th army, and his rating will drop, that doesn't make sense. The player could not prevent this from happening, it is done by the system.
So Kluge could not be send to other place by the player? Why?
I just hope a Model is still Model in the game. a Model minus is not what I want, since this is a history simulating game.


Only unassigned leaders get jobs from the AI so put Model somewhere like 1 xxx first. Alternatively assign a leader to replace Kluge before giving him OKH
There are many good leader get rating cut by unexpected promotion, and they are no longer themselves after the promotion, so why give them the particular history name? Why not just name them general x103, x104, since their leader rating is nothing relevant to their history performance.
I believe that the game data assign the rating to each general according to their history performance. But after the rating cut in those unexpected promotion events, these data become screwed. That is illogical.
A Vatutin having a infantry 6 is not Vatutin, why not name it general x106? It doesn't make sense.


mktours
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: STEF78

ORIGINAL: mktours
One solution might be that such rating drop should be reverse after 3 turns of the promotion.
+1
Thanks!
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Revthought
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by Revthought »

It makes perfect sense. It's called the Peter Principle. Only a certain amount of talent from anyone is "inborn,"'including that of generals. A lot of a persons ability to perform certain tasks, including leading men during war, has to do with experience. And in some cases, there is a cap on that ability. Historically speaking, if we look at the American Civil War I can identify two cases where excellent division and corps commanders made terrible army commanders--John Bell Hood on the Confederate side and Joseph Hooker on the Union side. In addition Confederate general AP Hill is a great example of an incredibly talented division commander who took time to grow into his role as a corps commander after the reorganization of the Army of Northern Virginia following TJ Jackson's death.

So I think it is entirely fair that a general like Model experiences a drop in skill when promoted before he has accumulated the experience necessary to transition to army command; however, given what we know about these leaders through hindsight, I also think it fair that generals with a skill of 8 in something should be allowed to earn that skill back through experience if their initial skill is reduced due to early promotion.
Playing at war is a far better vocation than making people fight in them.
mktours
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: Revthought

It makes perfect sense. It's called the Peter Principle. Only a certain amount of talent from anyone is "inborn,"'including that of generals. A lot of a persons ability to perform certain tasks, including leading men during war, has to do with experience. And in some cases, there is a cap on that ability. Historically speaking, if we look at the American Civil War I can identify two cases where excellent division and corps commanders made terrible army commanders--John Bell Hood on the Confederate side and Joseph Hooker on the Union side. In addition Confederate general AP Hill is a great example of an incredibly talented division commander who took time to grow into his role as a corps commander after the reorganization of the Army of Northern Virginia following TJ Jackson's death.

So I think it is entirely fair that a general like Model experiences a drop in skill when promoted before he has accumulated the experience necessary to transition to army command; however, given what we know about these leaders through hindsight, I also think it fair that generals with a skill of 8 in something should be allowed to earn that skill back through experience if their initial skill is reduced due to early promotion.
In short, there are two counter-comment on your view. First, you apply a general principle on some particular individual personal. A general rule works on statistics level, but there are always exceptions, so we should not take it for granted when considering any individual case. As you said, we know from hindsight, that the particular leader should still work at the rating which the game data assigned to him, given his recorded historic performance. They have proved they can handle the 'promotion shock' in history already. By the way, a high rank military official should have learned how to command an army in Military Academy already.
Second, as I said in the posts above, the rating drop isn't 'for a while', it last for the whole game.

If the particular leader whose rating got cut could argue with you, I think they would win. Could you imagine Model got scared when he was promoted from L.G to G? Could you imagine him saying, 'Hey, don't do this, I am not ready'? I think he would be very angry to this game feature. An assault to him, indeed.
In Soviet side, there are more evidents, many Major Generals got promoted in emergency situations and they did well.
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