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USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On?

 
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USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 1:39:14 AM   
Footslogger

 

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Yes Gentlemen, she was nearly hit.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/iran-fires-rockets-near-us-aircraft-carrier/ar-BBo1Pvm?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 1:51:21 AM   
desicat

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Yes Gentlemen, she was nearly hit.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/iran-fires-rockets-near-us-aircraft-carrier/ar-BBo1Pvm?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp




"The Iranian vessels came as close at 1,500 yards from the USS Harry S. Truman before firing the rockets in a direction away from the carrier,"

They aren't crazy - I think.....

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 1:53:31 AM   
wdolson

 

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According to the article, the missiles were all fired away from the Truman and other ships.

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 4:07:02 AM   
Lokasenna


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"Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no." Or these thread titles, for that matter.

I mean, really. There are better places.

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 10:08:30 AM   
HansBolter


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They also gave warning of the 'test' firing albeit only 23 minutes in advance.

Obviously a provocation, but not a rogue attempt at an attack.

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 10:17:46 AM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Yes Gentlemen, she was nearly hit.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/iran-fires-rockets-near-us-aircraft-carrier/ar-BBo1Pvm?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp




Is that the X-47B on the aft deck?

Wonder if the USN warned Iran that they'd pass through the Strait?

Fred

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 1:35:44 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

Wonder if the USN warned Iran that they'd pass through the Strait?



No reason to. And many reasons not to. Not that the Iranians don't have the ability to know about it ahead of time.

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 3:59:45 PM   
Lokasenna


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It's not like most of the strait isn't Iran's territorial waters, per maritime law, or anything.

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 5:40:20 PM   
Amoral

 

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The US sails a carrier through the straits, and then calls Iran provocative when they conduct a test in their own territorial waters. That's pretty ballsy.

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 6:08:43 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral

The US sails a carrier through the straits, and then calls Iran provocative when they conduct a test in their own territorial waters. That's pretty ballsy.



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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 6:17:36 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral

The US sails a carrier through the straits, and then calls Iran provocative when they conduct a test in their own territorial waters. That's pretty ballsy.


I mean, it was meant to be provocative. But it's also pretty harmless. They (Iran) and we (US) all know that actually shooting at us would be very bad for them.

But to get all bent out of shape for them doing completely predictable things within sight of their own shore is rather asinine, and this article is meant to provoke outrage over it for dubious reasons.

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 6:38:43 PM   
Lecivius


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Just to be 100% clear, it is not "their own territorial waters".

Just wanted to be clear on that. The Iranians are sure to have a proprietary interest in the straights, and I can understand that. But it is not theirs.

Carry on

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 7:31:52 PM   
Lokasenna


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Just because the United States doesn't recognize all of UNCLOS doesn't mean it's not a thing. We're basically the only major country in the world that isn't at least a signatory - and not because we don't recognize 12-miles for territorial waters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea

In the 20th century, territorial waters claims expanded outwards from 3 nautical miles to 12. The Strait of Hormuz is jointly (and reasonably) claimed by Iran and Oman. The entire thing is made up of, in terms of international relations, the territorial waters of those two countries. Every time we sail through it we're sailing through somebody else's ocean.

A comparable situation would be if there was some kind of conflict in Canada, and somehow it made sense for, say, Russia to send its navy/aircraft carriers into the Canadian waters to get to Victoria or somewhere - but in doing so, they sailed through the Strait of Juan de Fuca, which is 10-18 miles wide and split between Canadian/US territorial waters. A person couldn't reasonably claim that the Strait of Juan de Fuca isn't made up of Canadian/American territory, right? I mean, that would be ridiculous.

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 7:38:30 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Just because the United States doesn't recognize all of UNCLOS doesn't mean it's not a thing. We're basically the only major country in the world that isn't at least a signatory - and not because we don't recognize 12-miles for territorial waters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea

In the 20th century, territorial waters claims expanded outwards from 3 nautical miles to 12. The Strait of Hormuz is jointly (and reasonably) claimed by Iran and Oman. The entire thing is made up of, in terms of international relations, the territorial waters of those two countries. Every time we sail through it we're sailing through somebody else's ocean.

A comparable situation would be if there was some kind of conflict in Canada, and somehow it made sense for, say, Russia to send its navy/aircraft carriers into the Canadian waters to get to Victoria or somewhere - but in doing so, they sailed through the Strait of Juan de Fuca, which is 10-18 miles wide and split between Canadian/US territorial waters. A person couldn't reasonably claim that the Strait of Juan de Fuca isn't made up of Canadian/American territory, right? I mean, that would be ridiculous.


Even if we were a signatory, the Convention has rights of innocent passage for military vessels. The carrier was clearly exercising this passage right. The USN conducts innocent passage demonstrations all over the world every year to demonstrate our standing with this concept, even though we have not signed the UNCLS.

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 8:02:02 PM   
Lecivius


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The straights are also 39 miles across at it's narrowest. At no point (that I am aware of) does the channel cross within the 12 mile limit of Iran. In fact, the only navigable channel that I am aware of that crosses completely within the 12 mile limit of another country is the Bosporus Straights.

Where else should we draw a line?

Straight of Juan de Fuca? - US or Canada?

English Channel? - British or French?

Staights of Gibraltar? - Spanish or Morocco?

Straights of Malacca? - Singhalese, Maylay, or Indonesia?

Skagerrak? - Denmark or Norway? (this may be a bad example)

Baltic Sea...6 of 1 and you pick em

There are many close waterways. The Chinese just came through US waters, and while some folks got excited, they were within their rights as well. How excited do you think they would have become if a C.G. Cutter had gone out & conducted live fire drills?

I could probably say more, but I gotta get on this conference call. Peace guys, not trying to pick a fight

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 8:07:59 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Just because the United States doesn't recognize all of UNCLOS doesn't mean it's not a thing. We're basically the only major country in the world that isn't at least a signatory - and not because we don't recognize 12-miles for territorial waters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea

In the 20th century, territorial waters claims expanded outwards from 3 nautical miles to 12. The Strait of Hormuz is jointly (and reasonably) claimed by Iran and Oman. The entire thing is made up of, in terms of international relations, the territorial waters of those two countries. Every time we sail through it we're sailing through somebody else's ocean.

A comparable situation would be if there was some kind of conflict in Canada, and somehow it made sense for, say, Russia to send its navy/aircraft carriers into the Canadian waters to get to Victoria or somewhere - but in doing so, they sailed through the Strait of Juan de Fuca, which is 10-18 miles wide and split between Canadian/US territorial waters. A person couldn't reasonably claim that the Strait of Juan de Fuca isn't made up of Canadian/American territory, right? I mean, that would be ridiculous.


Even if we were a signatory, the Convention has rights of innocent passage for military vessels. The carrier was clearly exercising this passage right. The USN conducts innocent passage demonstrations all over the world every year to demonstrate our standing with this concept, even though we have not signed the UNCLS.


Right, innocent passage is fine. I'm not saying the USN did anything wrong at all. I just think these "articles" are spurious and intended purely to inspire outrage over something that adds up to diddly.

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 8:08:58 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

The straights are also 39 miles across at it's narrowest. At no point (that I am aware of) does the channel cross within the 12 mile limit of Iran. In fact, the only navigable channel that I am aware of that crosses completely within the 12 mile limit of another country is the Bosporus Straights.

Where else should we draw a line?

Straight of Juan de Fuca? - US or Canada?

English Channel? - British or French?

Staights of Gibraltar? - Spanish or Morocco?

Straights of Malacca? - Singhalese, Maylay, or Indonesia?

Skagerrak? - Denmark or Norway? (this may be a bad example)

Baltic Sea...6 of 1 and you pick em

There are many close waterways. The Chinese just came through US waters, and while some folks got excited, they were within their rights as well. How excited do you think they would have become if a C.G. Cutter had gone out & conducted live fire drills?

I could probably say more, but I gotta get on this conference call. Peace guys, not trying to pick a fight


Google tells me:
The Strait of Hormuz connects the Persian Gulf with the Gulf of Oman and the Arabian Sea. At its narrowest point, the strait is 21 miles wide.

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 8:14:52 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Right, innocent passage is fine. I'm not saying the USN did anything wrong at all. I just think these "articles" are spurious and intended purely to inspire outrage over something that adds up to diddly.


On that I completely agree. This from someone who was there when a Soviet intel trawler--at the 3-mile-limit--tried to ram his boat. Innocent passage? Pashaw. They'd been there for days. A really ugly female cook too.

There seems to be a real cottage industry in the dim, dusty corners of the "press" dedicated to drumming up faux outrage among the low-data portion of the US population who get their foreign policy from Call of Duty games.

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 8:30:15 PM   
Lecivius


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Straits of Dover is only 20 miles wide. Both British & French control it. Neither claim it (I don't think, I could be wrong, there are sure to be some sort of boundaries). I'm sure Warspite or someone from that part of the world could offer a better opinion, but picture the uproar if the Royal Navy had a live fire drill in there, let alone while the Kiev was transiting.

The Strait of Gibraltar is, what? 7-10 miles across? Who gets that?

The Straight of Juan de Fuca channel goes back & forth. between Canada & the U.S. Ships of all nations transit that, including China.

Again, not trying to start something. But by law, it is not theirs to 'claim' any more than the Arabian, or Persian Gulf, or the South China Sea.


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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/30/2015 8:31:27 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

There seems to be a real cottage industry in the dim, dusty corners of the "press" dedicated to drumming up faux outrage among the low-data portion of the US population who get their foreign policy from Call of Duty games.


Completely, totally agree

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 12/31/2015 5:45:28 PM   
Amoral

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

Straits of Dover is only 20 miles wide. Both British & French control it. Neither claim it (I don't think, I could be wrong, there are sure to be some sort of boundaries). I'm sure Warspite or someone from that part of the world could offer a better opinion, but picture the uproar if the Royal Navy had a live fire drill in there, let alone while the Kiev was transiting.

The Strait of Gibraltar is, what? 7-10 miles across? Who gets that?

The Straight of Juan de Fuca channel goes back & forth. between Canada & the U.S. Ships of all nations transit that, including China.

Again, not trying to start something. But by law, it is not theirs to 'claim' any more than the Arabian, or Persian Gulf, or the South China Sea.



International law grants the right for nations to claim territorial waters, even in straights.

Spain and Morocco get the straits of Gibraltar. Britain also has claims which are not fully recognized. There is an internationally agreed on exclusion zone that allows free passage of ships.

France and England get the straits of Dover.

Oman and Iran get the straights of Hormuz.

Ships pass through these straights under two international laws. The law of innocent passage, which applies to most non military vessels. And the Right of Transit which allows military vessels to pass through a straight if they are moving from one area of the high seas to another.

The right of transit does not exist everywhere, it is agreed on by convention and treaty. It exists in the straights of Dover and the straight of Hormuz. It does not exist in the Straight of Juan de Fuca. China could sail a cargo ship through the Straight of Juan de Fuca, and appeal to the UN if it was seized. But they do not have a recognized right to sail a destroyer through there. The destroyer does have a recognized right to transit the straights of Dover or Hormuz.




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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 1/11/2016 12:42:35 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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In case you want to see it:

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2016/01/09/navy-video-shows-iranian-rockets-launched-near-truman-other-warships/78554342/

definitively unfriendly/ provocative and way too close to that transiting tanker

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 1/11/2016 1:43:40 AM >

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 1/11/2016 4:44:42 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58



On that I completely agree. This from someone who was there when a Soviet intel trawler--at the 3-mile-limit--tried to ram his boat. Innocent passage? Pashaw. They'd been there for days. A really ugly female cook too.


But how was her lasagna? How did you know how ugly she was or whether they had a female one? Did you score?


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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 1/11/2016 4:56:36 PM   
geofflambert


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I believe the US has been very reasonable about this and protective of the rights of others. I don't think we give a rip if someone wants to transit through the Aleutians. I don't think the Straits of Malacca have been mentioned. Busiest seaway in the world. A friend of a friend went through there at least once as an aircraft carrier crewman, he said it was pretty scary. Blips everywhere.

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 1/11/2016 5:08:09 PM   
geofflambert


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I believe he was on CV-67 (or CVA-67), a CPO and at some point bunked underneath a catapult. If you can sleep there, you can sleep anywhere.

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 1/11/2016 7:57:13 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58



On that I completely agree. This from someone who was there when a Soviet intel trawler--at the 3-mile-limit--tried to ram his boat. Innocent passage? Pashaw. They'd been there for days. A really ugly female cook too.


But how was her lasagna? How did you know how ugly she was or whether they had a female one? Did you score?



Apply Occam's Razor.

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 1/11/2016 8:06:45 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58



On that I completely agree. This from someone who was there when a Soviet intel trawler--at the 3-mile-limit--tried to ram his boat. Innocent passage? Pashaw. They'd been there for days. A really ugly female cook too.


But how was her lasagna? How did you know how ugly she was or whether they had a female one? Did you score?



Apply Occam's Razor.





I prefer Ockham. Dude was a Brit, not an Arab.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 1/11/2016 9:07:43 PM >


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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 1/11/2016 8:16:39 PM   
geofflambert


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OK, I applied the Earl of Ockham's Razor and here are the answers: Who gives a crap? I have my ways. What sort of moose do you think I am?

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 1/12/2016 12:38:55 AM   
BBfanboy


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The Strait of Malacca has more piracy problems than anywhere else in the world. They may not fire big missiles but they mean business if you are not well defended.

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RE: USS. Harry S. Truman Fired On? - 1/12/2016 1:32:17 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I believe the US has been very reasonable about this and protective of the rights of others. I don't think we give a rip if someone wants to transit through the Aleutians. I don't think the Straits of Malacca have been mentioned. Busiest seaway in the world. A friend of a friend went through there at least once as an aircraft carrier crewman, he said it was pretty scary. Blips everywhere.


The Coast Guard is very active in the Aleutians though. It is a major fishing ground, and it has the worst weather in the world. So they are there to protect American fishing boats that get into trouble, but also to keep out Asian factory fishing ships that can destroy fishing grounds in short order.

As for bunking under the flight deck, my mother's cousin was an F9F pilot on the Oriskany in the Korean War. His bunk was under the aft end of the flight deck. His squadron didn't have to be up that early in the morning, but he said the F4Us would launch just before dawn and they didn't use the catapults, they would rev up and do a rolling take off from the stern end of the flight deck. He said getting back to sleep after that was pretty much impossible.

I have a friend who was a chief on the modern Juneau in the 1980s. (In 23 years it was the only time he actually went to sea, he was a land lubbing sailor.) He said the chief's quarters got so hot when they were in the tropics he would sleep on the catwalk above the wet deck which got a good breeze.

I've slept on trains a couple of times and in cars, but I think trying to sleep on a ship like that would be very difficult.

Bill

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