IN THEIR CURRENT STATE: WITE vs WITW?

[Delaware]

I asked this in the WITW forum so I wanted to ask this here for different perspectives. In their current form (WITE with years of patches: WITW with Operation Torch), which game is a better game experience?

[comte]

I used to think WITE was better then WITW but after spending the last few weeks slowly learning the air system. I think WITW is the superior game. Fired up WITE this week and couldn't get into it after putting a bunch of time into WITW.

[Denniss]

WitW obviusly has better logistics and more realistic ground combat. Air use is much improved as well. In WitE both sides are simming in oceans of oil and fuel, in WitW this has been reduced for Axis but their pools still seem to high (with EFB on, may be different/problematic with EFB off).

But WitW lacks many many improvements made for WitE 1.08, not all of them were workarounds for engine limitations in WitE. Some randomly selected of them: Split factory/unit upgrade, the additional repair cycle during enemy logistics, the major improvements to equipment imports/conversion and build limitations, a more realistic vehicle repair rate (no more huge vehicle repair backlog with multiple 100k damaged vehicles in pool while units are crying for them.

[shermanny]

WITW has a lot of potential but so far what it looks like to me is that the Germans can bleed the Allied air forces dry. What happened in reality was that it was going that way for a while in 1943 while the Allies pursued a bombing campaign beyond fighter escort range, but when long range P51s became available, things went the other way. In a matter of a few weeks, over the course of "0peration Point Blank", the Allies sent streams of very heavily escorted daytime bombers to Berlin and other must-defend targets deep in the Reich, and dared the Germans to oppose them. The Germans did, and got more or less wiped from the skies.

In the game, the Allies cannot do anything remotely like that.

Is it a designer decision? Or just an oversight? I don't know. But for the time being, the sheer scale of the E Front and the possibility of major pockets and lots of action makes it a more intriguing game unless you've learned all you care to about it and it has no fresh charms.

The West Front is inevitably going to be less dramatic. The Germans had the real possibility of just carefully organizing lines along the approaches from France into Benelux and Germany, and defending them stoutly, one after the other. With good play on both sides and correct logistics and combat modeling, the game is just about bound to devolve into a bitter positional struggle along these approaches, much of it fought in bad weather.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Shermanny

WITW has a lot of potential but so far what it looks like to me is that the Germans can bleed the Allied air forces dry. What happened in reality was that it was going that way for a while in 1943 while the Allies pursued a bombing campaign beyond fighter escort range, but when long range P51s became available, things went the other way. In a matter of a few weeks, over the course of "0peration Point Blank", the Allies sent streams of very heavily escorted daytime bombers to Berlin and other must-defend targets deep in the Reich, and dared the Germans to oppose them. The Germans did, and got more or less wiped from the skies.

In the game, the Allies cannot do anything remotely like that.

..

I've played 2 PBEMs (both sides) and 3 campaigns vs AI (both sides) and in every one I've seen a prety realistic transition in the air war over Germany.

Crudely 1943 .. the Allies have to plan to avoid the Luftwaffe, if you get caught you are going to take heavy losses and need to rest for a few weeks (losses as such don't matter but the damage to squadron morale is more important)
Early 1944 (P51/P47 arrives), you can stand toe to toe with the Luftwaffe, you'll still suffer but attrition is on your friend
Mid - end 1944, you can go hunting the Luftwaffe, work out where the fighter concentrations are and send in large, very well escorted raids,
to end game, ignore the Luftwaffe

Now the precise transition points vary according to player skill, in particular how you deploy the Luftwaffe defensively and if the Allied player really understands how to set up strategic bombing directives, but that overall pattern is pretty much inevitable given relative industrial capacity and the lack of new trained pilots for the Germans

as to the OP

They are very different games and I'd agree with Denniss, its not just theatre of operation, both have things lacking in the other.

WiTW has a far far more realistic logistics model, ends the frictionless rails and always full depots of WiTE. WiTE however, does have a certain epic scale

[Delaware]

Thanks to all. I bought both. So for now I am playing WITE because I am reading Fritz's OSTKRIEG. WHen I finish that and take up Charles MacDonald's A Time for Trumpets about the Bulge, I will play WITW.

[LiquidSky]

Sheesh..if somebody is bleeding the Allies dry I wish they would tell me how. I tried really hard to make the Luftwaffe last, and even though I had a viable threat in mid 1944, there was no way it was going to survive over the winter.

Simple math...the allies will have over 16,000 planes that can fly in 1944. You will have around 3000 fighters. If you managed to hang on to them that long. More likely it will be less then 2,000

[Trugrit]

Sorry, I got this in the wrong thread.

[STEF78]

I'am playing WITE intensively for 4 years. It has some defaults (logistics, easy surrending after encirclement, HQBU...) but it's fun and sometimes really epic! My best wargame's purchase ever.

I bought WITW, read the rules, tried it, invaded Sicily without trouble but never got the "passion" and get back to WITE.

Maybe I will retry WITW.... But not yet, my current WITE opponent is playing at a slow rate... Mayve I could handle a second WITE game [:)]

[Bozo_the_Clown]

I asked this in the WITW forum so I wanted to ask this here for different perspectives. In their current form (WITE with years of patches: WITW with Operation Torch), which game is a better game experience?

Despite all its flaws WitE is the ultimate Eastern front war game. No other games comes even close to it. I tried WitW but it didn't do it for me. I can't really explain why. It seemed rather boring.

I think WitE2 will be an amazing game!