OT: US navy returns to celestial navigation amid fears of computer hack

[witpqs]

Back to the future!

US navy returns to celestial navigation amid fears of computer hack

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Back to the future!

US navy returns to celestial navigation amid fears of computer hack

What about when the Rooskies hack the stars? Huh? Didja think of that? [:'(]

[Denniss]

Should be basic knowledge for navy officers, just like swimming for all sailors.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Back to the future!

US navy returns to celestial navigation amid fears of computer hack

What about when the Rooskies hack the stars? Huh? Didja think of that? [:'(]

"That's no moon!!!" [X(]

[dr.hal]

It is still a requirement for Officers to know celestial navigation... The fleet requires each ship at sea to give a position fix both electronic and by sight navigation (if a sighting is possible, if not I believe a "DR" position is sent). This is recorded in the log of each vessel as well.

[crsutton]

I do not know if they still take noon sightings but I know my old union still requires a class in celestial navigation. I still have my old sextant. The surprising thing to me is that anyone thinks they can go to sea without knowing it. Ships rarely sink these days but I still want to know how to swim-just in case.

In one respect the article is factually incorrect. The use of sat nav and GPS on on merchants was fairly common by 1980. The article suggest that it was a mid 90s development. Pretty sad the quality of mainstream reporting these days. Who the hell is fact checking this stuff?

[dr.hal]

ORIGINAL: crsutton
In one respect the article is factually incorrect. The use of sat nav and GPS on on merchants was fairly common by 1980. The article suggest that it was a mid 90s development. Pretty sad the quality of mainstream reporting these days. Who the hell is fact checking this stuff?

You are absolutely right crsutton, as warships had it back in the early 80s. I remember when I was crossing the Atlantic in my sailboat (1985) that I WISHED I could afford satnav as I had gone six days without a fix (NOT a drug fix you guys, a navigation fix) and wasn't sure where I was (it's a BIG ocean). Fortunately a "US NAVY WARSHIP" was sighted on the horizon and I called the ship up by UHF and did the unthinkable, asked for a fix (as I knew they had satnav). I found out my DR was good, I was only 10 miles off after six days! Satnav was commercially available back then but a unit would cost about 5K.... not something this sailor could afford! Plus due to the DoD, the units were not as accurate as they are now, thanks to security concerns. That's all changed now! I recently did a 350 mile trip on my boat (different one than the trans Atlantic one) and didn't one sighting (although as you said, I still have a sexton onboard and a few at home!). Hal

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

It is still a requirement for Officers to know celestial navigation... The fleet requires each ship at sea to give a position fix both electronic and by sight navigation (if a sighting is possible, if not I believe a "DR" position is sent). This is recorded in the log of each vessel as well.

The officer training programs stopped teaching celestial in 2006. There was quite a bit of hoo hah about it at the time for the reasons given in the article.

At OCS we had to learn to do sight reductions, but not to use a sextant. IMO the math is easy and can easily be put on a PC these days (we used manuals and scratch paper.) The really hard part is the sextant work, especially in rough seas and especially with clouds. Oh, it helps to know what body you're looking at too.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I do not know if they still take noon sightings but I know my old union still requires a class in celestial navigation. I still have my old sextant. The surprising thing to me is that anyone thinks they can go to sea without knowing it. Ships rarely sink these days but I still want to know how to swim-just in case.

In one respect the article is factually incorrect. The use of sat nav and GPS on on merchants was fairly common by 1980. The article suggest that it was a mid 90s development. Pretty sad the quality of mainstream reporting these days. Who the hell is fact checking this stuff?

GPS in 1980? You sure?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

ORIGINAL: crsutton
In one respect the article is factually incorrect. The use of sat nav and GPS on on merchants was fairly common by 1980. The article suggest that it was a mid 90s development. Pretty sad the quality of mainstream reporting these days. Who the hell is fact checking this stuff?

You are absolutely right crsutton, as warships had it back in the early 80s. I remember when I was crossing the Atlantic in my sailboat (1985) that I WISHED I could afford satnav as I had gone six days without a fix (NOT a drug fix you guys, a navigation fix) and wasn't sure where I was (it's a BIG ocean). Fortunately a "US NAVY WARSHIP" was sighted on the horizon and I called the ship up by UHF and did the unthinkable, asked for a fix (as I knew they had satnav). I found out my DR was good, I was only 10 miles off after six days! Satnav was commercially available back then but a unit would cost about 5K.... not something this sailor could afford! Plus due to the DoD, the units were not as accurate as they are now, thanks to security concerns. That's all changed now! I recently did a 350 mile trip on my boat (different one than the trans Atlantic one) and didn't one sighting (although as you said, I still have a sexton onboard and a few at home!). Hal

My boat had the old TRANSIT satnav system, but no GPS in 1983. It was still classified when it did appear on USN ships. As you say the civilian models, whenever they were put on sale, had a built-in error generator so they wouldn't be as good as the military ones. I think this was still true during Desert Storm.

We also had LORAN. Oh, and a SINS and an ESGM. Each of those were good enough to put a warhead on target from thousands of miles away, so they were good enough to avoid rocks. Whenever we went to PD we usually got a TRANSIT fix to verify the others; you never, ever throw away a chance at a fix. But I never saw a celestial fix after OCS. Only one SSBN periscope ever had the capability to take a star sight, and it was already retired in 1980.

[dr.hal]

Bullwinkle, I know they stopped teaching it, but that's not what I was referring to, the navigation officer of each ship still has to do a daily "sitrep" on the ship's position which includes a celestial sighting.... or as I said, a DR. I don't think that's changed. And the "fleet navigator" if there is a fleet at sea, must collate the responses and come up with a composite fix for the fleet and report that to the SOPA.

As far as taking sights, yes that's the hard part (if you have HO 214 the math is simple) and try doing that from the deck of a 40 foot sailboat! I usually did nothing more than a running fix based upon a Local Apparent Noon (LAN) shot.... Hal

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Bullwinkle, I know they stopped teaching it, but that's not what I was referring to, the navigation officer of each ship still has to do a daily "sitrep" on the ship's position which includes a celestial sighting.... or as I said, a DR. I don't think that's changed. And the "fleet navigator" if there is a fleet at sea, must collate the responses and come up with a composite fix for the fleet and report that to the SOPA.

As long as it's an "or." [8D] A DR can be fine or donkey fazoo.

The idea of having other ships to collate with is pretty foreign to a bubblehead.

[dr.hal]

You should be polite and talk to your targets...

[zuluhour]

I thought celestial navigation was driving on drugs.

[AW1Steve]

We had a pair of inertials that would argue with each other , obviously LORAN but in the mid to late 80's we started getting a bolt on system to "play with" as well as a SATCOM (also "bolt on"). The SATNAV at that time did not have a full "constellation" of 24 , so it was a lot less accurate that today. We didn't find it much better than the inertials , but the SATCOM we got all excited about. For the 1st time we had continuous direct secure comms with our base (completely solving the "Safety of flight issues" that a lone plane operating in the middle of a big ocean would always have). Our NAV's frequently would practice with the periscope sexton and would even teach some of the enlisted crew . The best Navigators I every flew with would use every system and technique they could to compare against each other. Star shots, Inertials, SATNAV (AKA GPS), LORAN , RADAR cuts , and even on overland "IFR". No , not instrument flight rules. I FOLLLOW ROADS. Whatever gets you home. [:D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

You should be polite and talk to your targets...

They were not a social bunch. [:D]

[Big B]

This is funny, because I was recently talking to a friend who is old like me, and he was 82nd AB, and we talked about Land-Nav with map and compass.
We wondered if they even still teach that?...after years of GPS.

Back in the 70's and 80's we Infantry types could navigate with a paper map even if we didn't have a functioning compass.

No idea what they do today.

[spence]

My first ship USCGC Duane (1972) had Loran A: serial number 0000003. That plus star sights was pretty much it. A few years later I got assigned to a ship with Loran C. Towards the end of my tour (1978) we made a cruise using some kind of satellite navigation system, the purpose of which was to verify the Loran C readings printed on the charts which had been mathematically calculated but which were in error. Can't really remember all that we did but we did it at anchor because the satellite system required multiple satellite passes to resolve our position with the necessary accuracy. At that time Loran C was commonly used by merchies and fishing boats for navigation. Not sure what the rich folk (USN) used.

[ByronBond]

Grrrrr... read the article, and the nomenclature issues actually make it hard to understand just who is learning what.

The article says "enlisted recruits" and "new recruits" a few times, but when you finally parse it out, it seems to say that USNA is adding it back to the curriculum for Midshipman (who are not recruits in any sense of the word). And no mention of NROTC or OCS, though apparently the writer thought it important that Army reservists in 3 locations are getting a pilot program.

And for those collecting info on when GPS hit the fleet, I was on a shiny newer "Spru-can" (Spruance class DD) from 85-88 and we had Loran C but no GPS. I also remember having to plot a celestial fix as part of my warfare qualifications. I was in the right ocean (luckily it was the Pacific so I had a lot of room for error [:D]) but the math was right, so it was passed as "good enough"! We later had a Coast Guard exchange officer as our navigator for a year, and man, that guy was was phenomenal with his celestial plotting and navigation skills. He was good natured about it when we teased him that of course he had to be good, a couple of miles for him on a cutter would put him in downtown San Diego but for us it was just different blue water.[:)]

[robinsa]

If I recall correctly GPS was made available to the public by Reagan after that korean airliner got shot down by the soviets. Based on that commerical satnavs should have been available by the mid 80's or so.