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Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep?

 
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Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/14/2015 1:48:27 PM   
falcon2006

 

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My friends and I decided to simulate an air combat happened in China in WW2. As CAF command, I set P-40s to sweep a Japanese base in 13000ft and P-43s in 22000ft(so they can protect P-40s from Ki-44's ambush). All the aircrafts were the same HQ and base. However, the result was P-43s arrived first and were outnumbered by a mix of Ki-43 and Ki-44. So am I set sth wrong or just because AE prevent a coordinated multi-altitude sweep from happening?
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/14/2015 3:03:56 PM   
Lokasenna


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Sweeps rarely coordinate between groups. The only way to do it is as you set it - with 2 groups set at different altitudes. And you had the correct things for trying to get them to coordinate, however sweeps fragment much more often than strikes do in my experience. I almost always have groups of 3 that split off from the main sweep, and only a handful of times have I seen multiple groups arrive over the target at the same time.

(in reply to falcon2006)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/14/2015 3:06:02 PM   
HansBolter


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I have never seen sweeps by separate squadrons coordinate to fly to the target in the same mission.
They have always arrived sequentially & more often than not after the bombers and not before them.
Others mileage may vary.

Not so sure the game engine 'prevents' it as much as it doesn't facilitate it.

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Hans


(in reply to falcon2006)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/14/2015 4:51:04 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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Have you tried to put the "best" planes in a base that is closer to target?
technically, they should have greater probabilities of arriving before planes coming from farther away

(in reply to HansBolter)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/14/2015 5:36:34 PM   
Lowpe

 

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Let the P40's sweep, and put the P43s as high altitude LRCAP.

There is no coordination for sweeps, cooperation maybe but it is rare especially at different altitudes.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/14/2015 11:02:59 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Let the P40's sweep, and put the P43s as high altitude LRCAP.

There is no coordination for sweeps, cooperation maybe but it is rare especially at different altitudes.


Nice solution. I like that. Thanks. BTW to help sweeps arrive before the bombers, you can set the bombers to naval attack with a secondary ground attack. They'll then fly in the second pulse, and hopefully the sweep will come in in the first. Not perfect but...

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Lowpe)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/14/2015 11:24:04 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I have never seen sweeps by separate squadrons coordinate to fly to the target in the same mission.
They have always arrived sequentially & more often than not after the bombers and not before them.
Others mileage may vary.

Not so sure the game engine 'prevents' it as much as it doesn't facilitate it.


They will coordinate, but very infrequently. I'm wondering if distance and speed are part of it, as my sweeps that coordinate most often are P-47s, which are relatively short range for sweepers and also very fast. I haven't gotten to P-51s yet.

The "more often than not" after the bombers is, I think, anecdotal. I would bet dollars to donuts (that's how you use that old phrase, right?) that it's about 50/50 in terms of arriving before or after sweeps. If you want your bombers to not get shredded by CAP at the target, you need to make sure the AF is shut down, provide escorts for your bombers, LRCAP the target, and sweep it... and you're still taking your chances with all of that. War and all. Dice gods.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Let the P40's sweep, and put the P43s as high altitude LRCAP.

There is no coordination for sweeps, cooperation maybe but it is rare especially at different altitudes.


LRCAP will be present during the sweep, but is not all that effective IMO.

(in reply to HansBolter)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/15/2015 2:38:39 AM   
Lokasenna


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As if on cue... from my latest PBEM turn:

quote:


Morning Air attack on Lautem , at 72,115

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 70 NM, estimated altitude 42,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 20 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 2
Ki-100-I Tony x 3

Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 25
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 20
F4F-4 Wildcat x 29
F6F-3 Hellcat x 84

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 2 destroyed

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
25 x P-47D2 Thunderbolt sweeping at 42000 feet *
20 x P-47D25 Thunderbolt sweeping at 42000 feet

CAP engaged:
20th Sentai with Ki-100-I Tony (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 19000 and 23000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes
19th Sentai with Ki-44-IIb Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Dili , at 71,115

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 46,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 23 minutes

Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 24
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 46

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
24 x P-47D2 Thunderbolt sweeping at 42000 feet *
24 x P-47D25 Thunderbolt sweeping at 42000 feet
22 x P-47D25 Thunderbolt sweeping at 42000 feet


You can see multiple groups coordinating here.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 8
RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/15/2015 5:50:41 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

I would bet dollars to donuts (that's how you use that old phrase, right?)


Yeah, that's how you use it sonny. Now get off my lawn.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Lokasenna)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/15/2015 7:20:17 AM   
BBfanboy


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Lokasenna, why does your report only mention the Thunderbolts sweeping? Did the Wildcats and Hellcats just come to watch the show? Or did the Jugs hog all the glory and leave nothing for the navy pilots?

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(in reply to Lokasenna)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/15/2015 11:17:42 AM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

I would bet dollars to donuts (that's how you use that old phrase, right?)


Yeah, that's how you use it sonny. Now get off my lawn.



That was one of my old man's favorite sayings!

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to rustysi)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/15/2015 2:59:32 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Lokasenna, why does your report only mention the Thunderbolts sweeping? Did the Wildcats and Hellcats just come to watch the show? Or did the Jugs hog all the glory and leave nothing for the navy pilots?


I happened to be sweeping a hex where I had some ships, and therefore some form of CAP.

I actually had some prior sweeps in the turn by single Army units and the Navy planes mostly just got in the way - losing several, while the Army planes did the killing.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/15/2015 3:42:35 PM   
Lowpe

 

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Nah, according to Alfred, whom I trust in this, fighters never coordinate. They cooperate. It is something deep in the bowels of the game engine kind of like fighters doing close escort is far different and less effective than fighters doing a cooperative escort.

Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/15/2015 4:42:27 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Nah, according to Alfred, whom I trust in this, fighters never coordinate. They cooperate. It is something deep in the bowels of the game engine kind of like fighters doing close escort is far different and less effective than fighters doing a cooperative escort.

Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't think so.


Potato, potahto... escorts coordinating with a strike package is not the same as sweepers cooperating. But if you're talking about sweepers and the units coordinating... clearly it's not escorting a strike.

They arrive over the target as one big group.

(in reply to falcon2006)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/15/2015 9:13:50 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

I would bet dollars to donuts (that's how you use that old phrase, right?)


Yeah, that's how you use it sonny. Now get off my lawn.



That was one of my old man's favorite sayings!


Mine too.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to HansBolter)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/16/2015 1:51:24 AM   
falcon2006

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Let the P40's sweep, and put the P43s as high altitude LRCAP.

There is no coordination for sweeps, cooperation maybe but it is rare especially at different altitudes.

You are right. I tested yesterday, although P-40s shot down no enemy fighters, it did avoid heavy losses, and P-43s had 2 kills of Ki-44

(in reply to Lowpe)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/16/2015 2:28:24 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: falcon2006


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Let the P40's sweep, and put the P43s as high altitude LRCAP.

There is no coordination for sweeps, cooperation maybe but it is rare especially at different altitudes.

You are right. I tested yesterday, although P-40s shot down no enemy fighters, it did avoid heavy losses, and P-43s had 2 kills of Ki-44


If you have the planes the most effective sweeps involve a mix of sweeping units with some units set to long range CAP over the target. Put your best planes on sweep and your average planes on LRCAP. Usually if you have say three groups sweeping they will go into the fight one at a time. It is nice when they coordinate but you can't guarantee it. However, the planes on CAP-although a bit less effective will "usually" be there to support each sweep as it goes in. If you are looking to beat down the air defense of an base before sending in bombers then this is the recommended action as the enemy fighter rise to engage each sweep.

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(in reply to falcon2006)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/16/2015 2:55:04 PM   
Lowpe

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: falcon2006


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Let the P40's sweep, and put the P43s as high altitude LRCAP.

There is no coordination for sweeps, cooperation maybe but it is rare especially at different altitudes.

You are right. I tested yesterday, although P-40s shot down no enemy fighters, it did avoid heavy losses, and P-43s had 2 kills of Ki-44


Say that again!

Actually, I probably used the idea from crsutton or lobaron or pax or alfred. Well, somebody.

(in reply to falcon2006)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/16/2015 6:53:44 PM   
Alfred

 

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The code can not, and does not, recognise coordination for fighters conducting a sweep mission.  Has been explained at length on many occasions by LoBaron who on this specific issue had direct input from the key relevant dev.

For the most recent in depth discussion, read this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3332995&mpage=1&key=sweep%2Ccoordination&#3335765

Look out for LoBaron's post's in the thread and follow the trail of embedded links back to my posts (and further links) in the link.

In game terms, coordination has a very specific purpose which is limited to auto synchronising bombers to get to target.  Altitude is the specific code key to start the process which is then dependent on numerous variables.

Alfred

(in reply to Lowpe)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/16/2015 7:28:24 PM   
Lokasenna


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Sure, but...

In terms of what happens in the air combat, would there actually be a difference between the mythological coordinated sweep and 2+ sweeps arriving over the target at the same time? Wouldn't a coordinated sweep just be 2+ units arriving over the target at the same time? Or does this WITP Gospel definition of coordination assume that the coordinated fighters are behaving like escorts, not sweepers?

It seems like this is splitting hairs over semantics, unless there really is a difference in the way it works. The only thing I can think of is that despite 2 units of 25 arriving simultaneously on a sweep, only 1 unit of 25 fights at a time - in which case why would they both show up in the same combat in the report? But if both units happen to arrive at the same time, and fight at the same time (so that you have 50 planes fighting the defending CAP instead of 25)... then I just don't see what all the hubbub is about.

(in reply to Alfred)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/18/2015 9:11:52 PM   
Lowpe

 

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I have a feeling Lok, the answer to your question lies buried in the code...

A lot like the 2E malus against 1E fighters. There, but hard to quantify.


(in reply to Lokasenna)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/24/2015 11:37:38 PM   
apbarog


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Just had the following combat in my game. It appears that the enemy was sweeping with 3 squadrons. I know from the replay that some came from Rabaul, and some came from the direction of Buna or Lae. There were no bombing missions occuring, so these fighters were not escorting anything. (Unless there is something I don't know about escorting other sweeps).

From what I've read, this is some type of lucky arrival at the same time? I've done many, many sweeps over the years, using same or different bases, same or different altitudes, and I've never gotten this type of big sweep. But it obviously can occur.

There a huge difference in effectiveness getting 100 fighters to show up in a sweep at the same time, compared to 3 sweeps arriving separately and each in fewer numbers than the CAP.

If there is a secret to making this work, I'd like to learn it.

Morning Air attack on Milne Bay , at 101,133

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 108 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 68
A6M3 Zero x 29

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk IA x 17
P-40E Warhawk x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk IA: 7 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 4 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
29 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 20000 feet *
31 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 20000 feet
22 x A6M3 Zero sweeping at 20000 feet

CAP engaged:
No.75 Sqn RAAF with Kittyhawk IA (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 7 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
51st FG/25th FS with P-40E Warhawk (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 10 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes


(I do wonder what the * at the end of the line for the first group of Zeros sweeping means)

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 22
RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/25/2015 5:15:15 AM   
Lokasenna


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The secret is luck - after you've controlled for good leaders and using the same (or close to the same) aircraft from bases at similar distances (allegedly on the distance?).

The * is just to differentiate the squadrons from each other.

(in reply to apbarog)
Post #: 23
RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/25/2015 5:37:57 AM   
Puhis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: apbarog



(I do wonder what the * at the end of the line for the first group of Zeros sweeping means)


I think it means that squadron is flying extended range.

(in reply to apbarog)
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RE: Is it impossible to launch a muti-altitude sweep? - 10/25/2015 8:18:47 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: apbarog

Just had the following combat in my game. It appears that the enemy was sweeping with 3 squadrons. I know from the replay that some came from Rabaul, and some came from the direction of Buna or Lae. There were no bombing missions occuring, so these fighters were not escorting anything. (Unless there is something I don't know about escorting other sweeps).

Not necessarily so. Sometimes when the bombers scheduled to attack scrub their mission their coordinated escorting fighters continue on to the target anyway and conduct a sweeping mission instead.

From what I've read, this is some type of lucky arrival at the same time? I've done many, many sweeps over the years, using same or different bases, same or different altitudes, and I've never gotten this type of big sweep. But it obviously can occur.

There a huge difference in effectiveness getting 100 fighters to show up in a sweep at the same time, compared to 3 sweeps arriving separately and each in fewer numbers than the CAP.

If there is a secret to making this work, I'd like to learn it.

You need to read closely the link I provided in post #19 above and in turn read closely the trail of embedded links provided by LoBaron and myself. There is no overall trick involved. What is required is to align all the relevant variables (which are discussed in the various embedded links). That is quite a difficult task which is why I employ the term "cooperation". Any variation in the variables acts against getting cooperation. Players must understand that the entire air combat game design philosophy is meant to make it difficult to obtain mass.


Morning Air attack on Milne Bay , at 101,133

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 108 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 68
A6M3 Zero x 29

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk IA x 17
P-40E Warhawk x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk IA: 7 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 4 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
29 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 20000 feet *
31 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 20000 feet
22 x A6M3 Zero sweeping at 20000 feet

CAP engaged:
No.75 Sqn RAAF with Kittyhawk IA (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 7 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
51st FG/25th FS with P-40E Warhawk (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 10 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes


(I do wonder what the * at the end of the line for the first group of Zeros sweeping means)

That unit flew at it's extended range. In this example that would be the unit flying from Rabaul.



Alfred

(in reply to apbarog)
Post #: 25
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