Review: First Impressions
Moderator: Jason Petho
Review: First Impressions
GREAT GAME.
BUY IT.
DO IT NOW.
FANTASTIC WORKMANSHIP BY THE DEVELOPERS.
Thanks
BUY IT.
DO IT NOW.
FANTASTIC WORKMANSHIP BY THE DEVELOPERS.
Thanks
- TomBombadil711
- Posts: 357
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RE: Review: First Impressions
VegasOZ said it all, hardly anything left to be added. Glad to have a game dealing with another topic than WW2. Looking forward to the Vietnam game.
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RE: Review: First Impressions
Especially considering the age of the codebase they had to deal with, and the order of magnitude of change in PCs since this series was first developed, I think the team has done a very good job.
RE: Review: First Impressions
I agree.
Its a steal.
very impressive. played darn near all night.
Its a steal.
very impressive. played darn near all night.
- KEYSTONE0795
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:01 am
RE: Review: First Impressions
Feels like a comfortable old shoe with a new sole, heel, and leather. This is one of the few war game purchases I have made in some time where I feel I received real value in return for my purchase.
Any new Campaign Series release is a first day purchase for me.
Thank you for the great entertainment.[&o]
Any new Campaign Series release is a first day purchase for me.
Thank you for the great entertainment.[&o]
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RE: Review: First Impressions
I'm trying to hold off on making an opinion just yet. A few weeks ago I probably would have said its a 10. That's when the plan was a couple new games and patching the older titles up to the current code base. Now knowing the plan is for East Front, West Front and Rising Sun to be full fledged releases costing $55 (With shipping, and assuming they keep the same price point) my view has changed. The "its an old engine" philosophy no longer fly's and I think each release needs to be judged against other releases in 2015. For example, if I consider Command Modern Air and Naval a 10 then is this a 10? I would think the 20 year old UI would only rate an 8 compared to other recent releases. I'll probably post in more detail as I spend more time with the game. Its not the sort of title you spend 5 hours on and get an informed opinion.
P.S. I have no knocks with the effort or work that went into this at all. I hope dev don't take it that way. My opinion of this series when it was a "labor of love" is just different than Slitherine turning this into a 6 game series at full prices for a 20 year old engine. Hopefully they will consider a reduced price on the older titles but considering WW2 titles probably sell ten times more than other conflicts I doubt there will be a discount there.
P.S. I have no knocks with the effort or work that went into this at all. I hope dev don't take it that way. My opinion of this series when it was a "labor of love" is just different than Slitherine turning this into a 6 game series at full prices for a 20 year old engine. Hopefully they will consider a reduced price on the older titles but considering WW2 titles probably sell ten times more than other conflicts I doubt there will be a discount there.
RE: Review: First Impressions
People tend to focus on the game engine, and among other things, judge a game, and the "fair price" for it, on how "old" it is. But these games are much more than the engine. There is the data -- the OOBs, the maps, the scenarios -- all entirely redone for Middle East; also the upgraded graphics, the .ai files, etc., not to mention the required background reading that underpins it all -- to go along with the engine. More effort has gone into (re)building the data than reworking the engine, in fact. (Though there are also tons of game engine improvements. Much of it is brand new code.) Is $40 (digital download) not a fair price for a game, and data set, 5 years in the making?
Now consider: Because we took the trouble a couple of years ago, all of the games in the Campaign Series now share a common codebase. We can easily back port improvements in the newer games to the old. Middle East -- five years in the making, and you can expect five years post-release of free updates (engine improvements, graphics updates, new scenarios and maps, etc.) to a "living game".
Is $40 really still too much to ask?
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Campaign Series Lead Coder https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... hp?f=10167
Panzer Campaigns, Panzer Battles Lead Coder https://wargameds.com
RE: Review: First Impressions
good job and great forward planning[;)]
Windows 11 Pro 64-bit (10.0, Build 22621) (22621.ni_release.220506-1250)
RE: Review: First Impressions
we want quality programs and then bitch about price when we get it. i have Command and bitching about price
is there too--incredible. If they charge $79 for IN...i'm there. they have earned that. i would have paid twice
for what they charged for Command. Its that good.
ME is too and for $39.00! i saved up for 3 months and followed along the forum not making up mind until about
2 or 3 weeks ago.
i work in education for the state now. i have a very limited budget like $15.00 a month for wargames. i save until i find something i want and if its a good product--well all the better. I have several that aren't very well supported,
i'm sure we all do...i don't care how old the engine is. i got 60 year old baseball cards and i wouldn't sell them
cheap cause their 'engine' is old.
i figure Command at $79 has cost me about 10 cents a startup. probably less in the 15 months i've 'owned' it. can't beat that anywhere and its updated all the time. some of the hardest working people i've bought a product from...any product.
i hope they do charge $50 for Vietnam. high time we paid talent. i was hoping they would charge $50 for this one...i hope it is a 'living' game. this is a joint effort. we support them so hopefully we get a good, well supported project
rant over aand know i'm not on matrix payroll and actually don't know any of the people who worked on ME or Command.
is there too--incredible. If they charge $79 for IN...i'm there. they have earned that. i would have paid twice
for what they charged for Command. Its that good.
ME is too and for $39.00! i saved up for 3 months and followed along the forum not making up mind until about
2 or 3 weeks ago.
i work in education for the state now. i have a very limited budget like $15.00 a month for wargames. i save until i find something i want and if its a good product--well all the better. I have several that aren't very well supported,
i'm sure we all do...i don't care how old the engine is. i got 60 year old baseball cards and i wouldn't sell them
cheap cause their 'engine' is old.
i figure Command at $79 has cost me about 10 cents a startup. probably less in the 15 months i've 'owned' it. can't beat that anywhere and its updated all the time. some of the hardest working people i've bought a product from...any product.
i hope they do charge $50 for Vietnam. high time we paid talent. i was hoping they would charge $50 for this one...i hope it is a 'living' game. this is a joint effort. we support them so hopefully we get a good, well supported project
rant over aand know i'm not on matrix payroll and actually don't know any of the people who worked on ME or Command.
RE: Review: First Impressions
I have been disappointed with some matrix releases which I felt were too incomplete and paid twice as much for. This will NOT be one of them. All the work these guys have put in that I have followed. This game has great aesthetics. I played all day yesterday without noticible glitches so far, still early I know. A full editor and battle generator giving practically endless replayability... At todays prices where much more is generally charged for much less at 50$ I feel like I am getting a steal.
RE: Review: First Impressions
Thanks all for your support! And, as Berto pointed out, it is not all about an "old" engine, my work on the 3d graphics for instance, which, BTW is not even halfway over, takes me somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-6 hours on some unit graphics for EACH unit graphic!! Ain't bitchin', I love doing them, but it's gotta be paid for as well, I work most evenings and pretty much all day Saturday and Sunday on them, very time consuming! The 2d graphics took me months to complete just those, to see all that improvement when you play 2d now!!
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- Location: USA
RE: Review: First Impressions
I think my post may have been taking out of context.
Work involved- Did you guys put in tremendous hours making it a good game? Yes you did. What you did with the air layer, 2D layer and scenario's was great. I acknowledge you did a great job there. You guys did great, that's the bottom line.
Engine - It does show its age at times. You have even acknowledge that but I don't recall the post off hand. I think it had to do with aircraft and maybe introducing dog fighting or something like that. Some things I would like to see in a modern title would include
1) Detailed combat settings. Show originating hex and receiving hex. With hundreds os units it could be easier to display what hex is firing at what hex. Since you show moveable hex's why not show hex's IF you choose to double time it. Why do I have to do the math of movement in this day and age? It worked in 1995 but its not 1995 any more. When I mention the engine its little things like this I refer to.
10 - The fact I don't view this as a 10 doesn't mean its not good. Not by a mile, but you inherited all the limitations of the engine from 20 years ago in a product released in 2015. There is no way around that unless you re-write the game from the ground up (You probably did half that). If a 10 is warranted based on fun and value you have it. If you base a score based on whats been done lately then you can't expect a 10. I don't mean that as a negative and "don't buy it". Anyone who has been playing the John Tillers Campaign Series will love it and should look into this title.
Cost - I never said the cost for Middle East wasn't worth it. I did question the cost of $55 with shipping for the older titles getting updated to the modern 2015 engine. I intend to purchase them all in the clam shell case and include shipping in my price estimate. That does amount to $55 X 3 for the old titles so bringing up the price for the old titles is not as warranted in my opinion. You did do work on graphics, OOB, scenario's etc and 3 (new, Middle East, Vietnam, Cold War) titles at $55 is warranted. Three more titles at $55 ( The older titles by Talon Soft) each is not as warranted in my opinion.
So I guess over all my opinion for an individual title such as Middle East is positive. My opinion of a 6 game series is different. I would also like to point out I had about 10 posts in the past 6 years. The fact I decided to start posting is a positive. I do not mean to come across negatively but I am trying to put things in perspective. We may just have to agree we all want a great game but have a different opinion with the publishers goals. I'm sorry if we don't see eye to eye there but please keep up the trend of making good games.
Work involved- Did you guys put in tremendous hours making it a good game? Yes you did. What you did with the air layer, 2D layer and scenario's was great. I acknowledge you did a great job there. You guys did great, that's the bottom line.
Engine - It does show its age at times. You have even acknowledge that but I don't recall the post off hand. I think it had to do with aircraft and maybe introducing dog fighting or something like that. Some things I would like to see in a modern title would include
1) Detailed combat settings. Show originating hex and receiving hex. With hundreds os units it could be easier to display what hex is firing at what hex. Since you show moveable hex's why not show hex's IF you choose to double time it. Why do I have to do the math of movement in this day and age? It worked in 1995 but its not 1995 any more. When I mention the engine its little things like this I refer to.
10 - The fact I don't view this as a 10 doesn't mean its not good. Not by a mile, but you inherited all the limitations of the engine from 20 years ago in a product released in 2015. There is no way around that unless you re-write the game from the ground up (You probably did half that). If a 10 is warranted based on fun and value you have it. If you base a score based on whats been done lately then you can't expect a 10. I don't mean that as a negative and "don't buy it". Anyone who has been playing the John Tillers Campaign Series will love it and should look into this title.
Cost - I never said the cost for Middle East wasn't worth it. I did question the cost of $55 with shipping for the older titles getting updated to the modern 2015 engine. I intend to purchase them all in the clam shell case and include shipping in my price estimate. That does amount to $55 X 3 for the old titles so bringing up the price for the old titles is not as warranted in my opinion. You did do work on graphics, OOB, scenario's etc and 3 (new, Middle East, Vietnam, Cold War) titles at $55 is warranted. Three more titles at $55 ( The older titles by Talon Soft) each is not as warranted in my opinion.
So I guess over all my opinion for an individual title such as Middle East is positive. My opinion of a 6 game series is different. I would also like to point out I had about 10 posts in the past 6 years. The fact I decided to start posting is a positive. I do not mean to come across negatively but I am trying to put things in perspective. We may just have to agree we all want a great game but have a different opinion with the publishers goals. I'm sorry if we don't see eye to eye there but please keep up the trend of making good games.
RE: Review: First Impressions
It's all good, guy![:)]
- Jason Petho
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RE: Review: First Impressions
Thanks everyone for the kind words.
They are very encouraging to hear and gives that extra drive to ensure we continue to release good products for you!
Here's to the future!
Jason Petho
They are very encouraging to hear and gives that extra drive to ensure we continue to release good products for you!
Here's to the future!
Jason Petho
RE: Review: First Impressions
About unbundling the old JTCS trio into three separate, standalone games:
There's simply no way going forward that we would continue to upgrade ("mega patch") three-games-in-one with well over 700 scenarios and many thousands of data files total. Whether as a freebie (which last year's JTCS 2.0* was), or as an all-in-one $40-50 new game. That's way too much content for a mid-priced game. (Don't forget the "living game" part and the promise of post-release new content and back ported engine updates.) If that were the proposition, JTCS 2.02 would be the end of the line, no more EF, WF or RS updates of any kind, finis.
Just as Middle East is not a rehashed Divided Ground; rather, is a brand new game rebuilt from the bottom up (data-wise, that is); WF 3.0, EF 3.0 & RS 3.0 will not be rehashes of the old JTCS games. The plan for them too will be to rebuild them from the bottom up. Substantially or mostly new data, all forms. By then, the engine will be substantially revamped also. Many of the new subsystems in Middle East are entirely new code. By the time WF 3.0 rolls around, even some of the older subsystems will be replaced with entirely new, or mostly new, code.
So, no more rehashing of the old games; rather, much renewing. At all levels. New wine in adapted bottles. Drink up.
Campaign Series Legion https://cslegion.com/
Campaign Series Lead Coder https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... hp?f=10167
Panzer Campaigns, Panzer Battles Lead Coder https://wargameds.com
Campaign Series Lead Coder https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... hp?f=10167
Panzer Campaigns, Panzer Battles Lead Coder https://wargameds.com
RE: Review: First Impressions
The price is very fair for the quality of the product.
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RE: Review: First Impressions
When you do East Front/ West Front/ Rising Sun can we expect all existing scenario's to be upgraded to the new Middle East 1.0 engine or will do do a partial list? Also any thought to the UI issues I mentioned like attacking hex versus targeting hex and the move double time?
RE: Review: First Impressions
Yes. We would be foolish not to do our utmost to preserve backward compatibility. Adapting all 700+ scenarios will be the goal. Adding new scenarios too.
Yes, the UI will continue to evolve.
The "new Middle East 1.0 engine"? Well, by then it will the "new WF 3.0 engine". A year or two later (because in between the plan is to release the Korean War game), it will be the "new EF 3.0 engine". And so on. Always evolving, always improving. That's The Plan.
Campaign Series Legion https://cslegion.com/
Campaign Series Lead Coder https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... hp?f=10167
Panzer Campaigns, Panzer Battles Lead Coder https://wargameds.com
Campaign Series Lead Coder https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... hp?f=10167
Panzer Campaigns, Panzer Battles Lead Coder https://wargameds.com
RE: Review: First Impressions
I posted the same question in CS forum regarding revamping all the scenarios and campaigns, thanks for putting my mind at ease. For me, if the content is the same as in all scenarios and campaigns revamped with the new features then the they will all be a day one buy for me. What about the DCG's going forward any conclusion by the team on that yet.
Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde
*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.
"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde
*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.
RE: Review: First Impressions
I remember buying EF then WF then RS from TS not some bundle. Apparently they liked getting paid for their efforts also. As for updating an old engine vs creating one de novo and evolving it in either case I am sure both would have it's headaches. The bottom line to me is that customers will either like what they do with it or not and support them accordingly. Right now I personally will give them the benefit of the doubt, I believe they have worked hard enough to earn it.