The Italian Spear

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Dogfax
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The Italian Spear

Post by Dogfax »

Hi all,
recently in a game I played the Italians made a east to west move conquering Greece (then aligning Yugoslavia), Cyprus, Syria, aligning Iraq, aligning Persia, and then capturing southern Russian oil resources. I nicknames this the Italian spear for want of a better name, but wondered if it had an historical links (was this ever dreamed up by the Italian high Command) or had a name that more experience players used?

This obviously meant the Italians did not need to declare war on the CW for quite some time and reduced them to defensive moves in the med, but allowed the Italians to amass a good empire and a lot of resources.
brian brian
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by brian brian »

I think Mussolini was all about Empire, though probably never dreamed of being able to get quite that far from the shores of the Mediterranean, which was more probably his prime strategic focus.
AlbertN
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by AlbertN »

Indeed Mussolini, and the "fascist" regime had inspirations to the "Mare Nostrum" of Anciet Rome, even the "Fascio Littorio" emblem of the Fascism hails from Ancient Rome.

But Italy by itself in WiF won't go anywhere, especially if not at war with a Major and thus being limited to rather crappy "Combined" impulses.
Ur_Vile_WEdge
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by Ur_Vile_WEdge »

Well, in WiF, you basically just described a "42 Barbarossa", which is uusally combined with a drive through Syria and Iraq. It used to be very very common. Nowadays, you still see it, but not nearly as much.


In real life, it was a dream of Mussolini's sure, but one that didn't have much in the way of practicality behind it. You saw how well the Italian troops performed in Greece; and real life Yugoslavia was such a basket case that if it "aligned" with anyone, it would be Germany who had more resources to protect/stabalize it.

As for the North African and middle east campaigns, pure fantasy. The supply infrastructure necessary to drive the British out of Egypt didn't really exist in real life wartime Libya. WiF doesn't really do levels of supply. Either you have a link and you can move as much around as you want, or you don't and you're basically helpless. The historic North African war was dominated by Rommel not having enough fuel and spare parts to do everything he wanted, and a problem that got worse the further east he pushed, until you got an inevitable British pushback.

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Jagdtiger14
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by Jagdtiger14 »

Trying to understand Axis strategy in real life is crazy...it was once described adequately enough by a friend of mine: The Nazi's were gangsters. Replace FDR with Al Capone as President of the US before and during WWII and imagine the results.

Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC
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warspite1
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Dogfax

Hi all,
recently in a game I played the Italians made a east to west move conquering Greece (then aligning Yugoslavia), Cyprus, Syria, aligning Iraq, aligning Persia, and then capturing southern Russian oil resources. I nicknames this the Italian spear for want of a better name, but wondered if it had an historical links (was this ever dreamed up by the Italian high Command) or had a name that more experience players used?

This obviously meant the Italians did not need to declare war on the CW for quite some time and reduced them to defensive moves in the med, but allowed the Italians to amass a good empire and a lot of resources.
warspite1

Dogfax – sounds like Italy were pursuing a west to east move – not the other way around [;)]. The Italian Spear (nice name by the way!) was not what Mussolini had in mind though.

In February 1939, feeling hemmed in by the British within the Mediterranean (Gibraltar and Suez) he announced the need to ‘march to the coast’. But as was said earlier, the Italians could do nothing on their own and, in his calmer moments, I suspect Mussolini knew it.

Of course Italian dreams and reality were about as wide apart as they could be. The intervention in Spain, the move into Ethiopia and excursions to Albania all helped to cripple the Italian economic position. At a time when the Italians needed to be re-arming their forces, they lost over 700 aircraft and nine million rounds of ammunition in Spain alone – and the budget deficit rocketed to 16bn Lira. It was estimated that in June 1940 the Italian army had just 10 divisions that were in any way shape or form up to strength – and of course that term is relative.

Thus the plan was to avoid war until at least 1942 – but Hitler went ahead anyway and Mussolini feared missing out on easy spoils – hence the rather charming ‘I only need a few thousand dead to bring to the peace table’ quote. By declaring war just before it was over he thought he could maximise gain for minimal cost. Except of course Hitler then decided that Vichy could keep Tunisia, Nice and Corsica – and worse still, those pesky British would not surrender.

Italy would need to expand their empire themselves, hence the order to Graziani to move into Egypt. Then, despite the fact that this had achieved nothing (they advanced a few miles across the border then stopped), and angered by Hitler’s success and refusal to consult him on plans, he ordered an attack on Greece – in the mountains… in autumn/winter….. Plans were made for an attack on Yugoslavia (Plan Y) too but Greece was the obvious choice. As later in the desert, so in Greece too, the Italians needed to be rescued by Hitler and from then on, Italian freedom of movement (to the extent it ever existed) was practically non-existent.

Italy is stronger in WIF than in reality for play balance purposes (especially if playing without oil) – but WIF still manages to reflect her position well.
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Klydon
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by Klydon »

I don't know that it is exactly fair to say the Italians are stronger than historical due to play balance or if it is a case that the Italians were so bad in terms of leadership that most anything could be a improvement over what actually happen. (Case in point, who invades Greece.. through the mountains.. in late autumn?). Perhaps considering the Italians as a very new player of WiF while many other players are more seasoned and/or good players might be more accurate.
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warspite1
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I don't know that it is exactly fair to say the Italians are stronger than historical due to play balance or if it is a case that the Italians were so bad in terms of leadership that most anything could be a improvement over what actually happen. (Case in point, who invades Greece.. through the mountains.. in late autumn?). Perhaps considering the Italians as a very new player of WiF while many other players are more seasoned and/or good players might be more accurate.
warspite1

If playing without oil they are definitely stronger because in WWII oil was, by 1942, a severe limitation on fleet movements.

But its not an exact science so - even with oil maybe they are or maybe not - but importantly there is no glaring overstatement or understatement.
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AlbertN
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by AlbertN »

Italy is not "stronger" than it was historically I feel.

They've a lousy economy that does not even allow them to field the historical battleships they've had.
Their units are extremely weak and won't go anywhere on their own unless the enemy is quite weak.

Italy on the other hand has potential - as an industrialized nation. They just need to get hands on resources to produce things.

By how the game goes, if Italy remains with a handful of resources - as historically was - that is where their economy go, and they struggle to even replace losses.
But if Euro-Axis can get in their hands enough resources Italy production can be "decent" (still pretty much the lowest of all besides China, and China -outproduces- Italy in '39 and maybe in '40 too!)

Also - obviously - a player would not disperse forces as much as the Italians did in the war; ultimately achieving nothing.
Italy suffered also an amount of issues at high leadership level (For example the non existant coordination between Regia Aeronautica and Supermarina that costed to the Italians a lot of naval stalemates and defeats).

I think Italy is well mirrored in the game - having a good degree of potential - but that is strictly linked to the reaches and successes of the Euro-Axis combined.

Italy morale lowered over time with the "defeats" of the nation (Greece, for instance, a hard hitting defeat for Italy, and so forth).
A constant stray of victories and successes would have probably drove the nation in different ways, with more motivation to fight maybe (Given the Italians were not really motivated past the taking back the lands that France got from Italy in 1860 - Corsica and Nice zone).
The other "only" feelings Italy really had were about the Dalmatian Coast - ancient colony of Sea Republic of Venice.
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warspite1
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Cohen

Italy is not "stronger" than it was historically I feel.

They've a lousy economy that does not even allow them to field the historical battleships they've had.
warpite1

I do not understand this. The beauty of WIF is that it does allow them to build their historical navy. But its all about choice. If you do this, then you build less NAV and fighter aircraft and/or land units. The decision is for the player - but there is nothing to stop Italy completing the older battleships, constructing Roma and finishing Littorio and Vittorio Veneto.
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AlbertN
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by AlbertN »

I think the two "old battleship" in the repair pool should be already in the production spyral as they're finishing their updates in AA and such. That is what I meant.
As it is now Italy has hardly the economy for repairing them - which is in my eyes way too low. Italy produces 2 - 3 BP's the first two turns, that's like half of China ... if not a third.
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warspite1
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Cohen

I think the two "old battleship" in the repair pool should be already in the production spyral as they're finishing their updates in AA and such. That is what I meant.
As it is now Italy has hardly the economy for repairing them - which is in my eyes way too low. Italy produces 2 - 3 BP's the first two turns, that's like half of China ... if not a third.
warspite1

But surely everything is relative? Why too low? In 1940 Italy built just over 2,000 aircraft. The Uk? Over 15,000. In 1940 Italy completed 2 battleships, 2 cruisers and 2 subs. The UK? 2 CV, a BB, 7 CL, 27 destroyers 109 escorts and 15 subs. Italy was incredibly weak - just look at the shopping list Mussolini gave Hitler in order for Italy to join the war.

The naval airforce (and quality) the RA can build is waaaaayy bigger than that Italy actually fielded in the war.

But fair enough, I cannot give exact data here so unless any of us can I guess its just perception and what we feel is right.

Edit: I wrote game instead of war [8|]
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Jagdtiger14
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by Jagdtiger14 »

The Italians in WiF do have lots of potential and interesting tools. That's why when I play the Germans, I make sure all Italian factories are humming right after the first turn of the game (to the logical .5 round up of course). I even send them BP's on occasion for special projects. Normally, in my group games the Italians repair and finish everything (second cycle)...many times even the Aquila is built. We always see the Roma, Littorio, and VV. Italian frogmen are an awesome weapon!
Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC
brian brian
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by brian brian »

good stuff there on Italy's costs in the Spanish Civil War, thanks Warspite. Perhaps I should try a Mussolini biography myself. The incredible evils of the Nazis and the epic scale of their war aims frequently over-shadow the nuts and bolts of Italian activity in the war when studying it later. I think I've probably had more access to material covering Rommel and Kesselring than Italian decision-making.

I've always enjoyed playing Italy in WiF or Third Reich before that. You only have one good strategic attack to make - your enemies are forced to await your decision...plan carefully.
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Jagdtiger14
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by Jagdtiger14 »

Its amazing after everything they did and spent getting Franco into power that Hitler didn't go to the Pyrenees and at the very least get (bully/guilt trip?) Franco into non-belligerent status. Good bye Gibraltar and methodically the rest of the Med. Instead, Battle of Britain.
Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC
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warspite1
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Its amazing after everything they did and spent getting Franco into power that Hitler didn't go to the Pyrenees and at the very least get (bully/guilt trip?) Franco into non-belligerent status. Good bye Gibraltar and methodically the rest of the Med. Instead, Battle of Britain.
warspite1

I do not understand the non-belligerency point – although may have read your post wrong. Franco did announce non-belligerent status for Spain. Whilst not a full ally, Spain provided the Germans with much assistance in WWII – including key supplies of Wolfram and the use of ports to refuel and harbour U-boats + of course the Spanish ‘Blue’ division (more than 40,000 served on the Eastern Front and almost a third were casualties).

Also the idea that Spain coming into the war (as a full ally of Germany) would automatically lead to the fall of Gibraltar (leading to job done) and that Hitler should have realised this, is taking hindsight too far. The situation in the autumn of 1940 for Hitler was more complicated than that.

In no particular order:

1. Spain was economically wrecked as a result of the Spanish Civil War – and militarily so too. She had very little in the way of aircraft, mechanised forces or much of a navy – she also had no oil.

2. History showed (with Mussolini and Italy) what the addition of an economically and militarily weak nation can do – or more accurately not do. Italy was a liability – Spain would have been worse – much worse.

3. As for Hitler being able to bully Franco, this was not really possible. The Caudillo gave Hitler a huge shopping list as a price for entry into the war. This list contained not only economic and military aid (which the Spanish desperately needed but the Germans could not afford to give) but, importantly, the handing of Morocco to Spain. Mussolini was thwarted in receiving parts of the French Empire – but had already joined the war and so had to live with Hitler’s need to keep Vichy on-side. But Franco hadn’t. For Spain, taking over Morocco was a pre-requisite for entry into the war. Hitler feared that Spain would not be able to defend Morocco – and it was better to allow the Vichy French to keep their Empire – and defend it. Remember the attack on Dakar had taken place only the previous month. What was better for Germany? A liability like Spain or a Vichy France regime that had successfully defended Dakar? No contest.

4. If the price was right, sure Hitler would have welcomed another ally, but the price was far from right, and in any case, by October 1940 Hitler had already begun turning his attention east and his raison d’etre - Lebensraum. Sealion had been ‘postponed’ and a Mediterranean strategy was not floating his boat.

5. We can also add to the mix that Franco’s position was not yet totally secure and many of his generals were far from keen on joining the Axis. Franco’s plan was not unlike Mussolini’s in June 1940. Spain would enter the war when it was right for Spain i.e. just before final victory. Franco was a fully paid up member of the Hitler admiration society – and hoped and believed in German victory late into the war, but he was also in charge of a country broken and on its knees following three years of bloody civil war.



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Jagdtiger14
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by Jagdtiger14 »

I in no way think Spain coming onto the side of the Axis would have happened, or would even have been a good idea for the Axis or especially for Spain (too much to lose), so no need to debate your 1-5.

Spain announced non-belligerent status to the world? If so, this is news to me, and I have no reason to doubt you and waste my time looking it up. This makes it even crazier that Hitler didn't move into Spain and take Gibraltar (post French surrender, pre-Vichy).

Could the Germans (not Spain) have taken Gibraltar? Absolutely, and it would not have taken long to do it...it would have taken longer to get the tools down there than the actual attack. See the "impregnable" fortress Eben-Emael. Gibraltar would not have equaled Sevastopol.

Soon after Gibraltar falls, Malta falls too (about a month later?). Then its just a question as to what happens in the eastern Med. Thanks to Italian Frogmen, the Axis actually had superiority in the eastern Med for a while.
Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC
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warspite1
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by warspite1 »

Yes Spain officially changed her stance from neutral to non-belligerent in June 1940 (quelle surprise….) but remember, the term non-belligerency is not recognised in international law.

A non-belligerent shows sympathies with, and makes commitments to, a nation at war but is effectively neutral herself and has to ensure that those sympathies and commitments do not affect her neutrality. Thus Spain could not simply allow the Germans to walk into Spain to attack Gibraltar while being neutral/non-belligerent. Indeed there are reports that Franco stationed troops in the Pyrenees to guard against the possibility that Hitler may take matters into his own hands.

As to the Germans adopting a Mediterranean strategy (even without Spain), I agree that this would seem likely to provide Hitler with the best possibility of really hurting the Commonwealth (although I think the result would have been an abandoning of the Mediterranean theatre and not a defeat of the UK).
Thanks to Italian Frogmen, the Axis actually had superiority in the eastern Med for a while.

Yes, the attack on the Queen Elizabeth and Valiant in December 1941 was highly successful - as was the Barchini attack on HMS York the previous March. However, in war things are never guaranteed. Have you read about the SLC and midget craft attacks that were not quite so successful? The SLC operations G.A 1 or G.A 2? Or how about Operations B.G 1, B.G 2 or B.G 3? There was also the disastrous attack on Malta along with small attack craft in July 1941? The first successful SLC attack was not actually carried out until September 1941.
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Finarfïn
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by Finarfïn »

I'll take a look but if i remember correctly, Italians didn't known Alexandria's operation was a success and so count the 2 BB as active.
Obviously this can't happens in MWIF.

Fin
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Klydon
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RE: The Italian Spear

Post by Klydon »

ORIGINAL: Finarfïn

I'll take a look but if i remember correctly, Italians didn't known Alexandria's operation was a success and so count the 2 BB as active.
Obviously this can't happens in MWIF.

Fin

Part of that was a result of CW deception. The Royal Navy did everything they could to mislead the Italians as to the true state of the ships.
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