dispersing the fuel and oil

[undercovergeek]

I have the DEI targets - do you chaps recommend just scooping all the fuel and sending it to the next front or is there a widely used 'fuel triangle' of take it from A, to B, to C

and the oil and resources - does all of this need to go back to he HI

[Numdydar]

Well first off 'scooping up all the fuel' is not going to happen [:(]. Japan just does not have the lift needed to get everything the DEI produces. So you need some help, small as it is.

You need to create a land link from Singapore to points North through China. Fuel/Oil will eventually move, slowly, very slowly, from Singapore to Shanghai if you have TFs at Shanghai set to load Oil/Fuel. You will NOT get huge amounts this way due to the limitations of the land transport routines, but it will save a few TFs from having to make the long haul from Singapore to the HI.

Also, unless you want your fleets to sit in the South Pacific and do nothing, then they will need fuel (and lots of it depending on your tempo) for operations. This is why historically the bulk of Japan's fleet sat in Truk and did nothing. The operation at Midway took a huge amount of Japan's fuel availability to accomplish. I.E. they robbed Peter to pay Paul.

This is the same choice you face as Japan. Do I increase fuel delivers to the fleet for actions I want to do or send the fuel to Japan to keep the industry running?

Also due to Japan's limited lift capacity for Fuel/Oil, I typically only carry Fuel back to the HI. HI produces supply in the HI better than refineries, so carrying fuel is more efficient than oil. You will just have to get used to all the 'Refinery at X is short Y Oil' messages in Tracker if you use that (and if you are playing Japan, you definitely should use Tracker [:)])

I hope this helps.

[jwolf]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

You need to create a land link from Singapore to points North through China.

Mild hijack, my apologies: I understand the game is what it is, but ... is this remotely plausible? I mean, let's suppose Japan has military control over all this area. Even so, could they do this?

[dr.hal]

What are the key cities along this route? Which ones are a MUST have and which are nice to have? Is there a loss rate as the Fuel/oil travels over land like supply??

[undercovergeek]

thanks for this - i was under the impression oil ran the industry and fuel was for the ships - need new plans

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

What are the key cities along this route? Which ones are a MUST have and which are nice to have? Is there a loss rate as the Fuel/oil travels over land like supply??

There is no 'loss' rate as far as I know. What happens is that the amount of supply you get is reduced by the terrain it travels over. You don't actually loss any supplies/oil/fuel in the transport. If this is wrong, then I will happily stand corrected [:)]

The only loss I know is spoilage when you have an excess of stuff at a base.

The trick of getting anything to move to a landlocked base or to get stuff at a distant port, like Shanghai, it to have the location have a 'demand' for what you want there. Demand is automatically created by HI for fuel, Refineries for oil, etc. You have a very limited ability to artificially create a demand. There are two ways.

1) In a landlocked base you can increase the supply needs in order to have more supply to be moved there
2) You can create a demand with a TF for supplies/fuel/oil/resources at a port that does not have any of these located there. These item will 'move' to the port in question over time. The longer the route the longer it will take. If you 'give up' and sail the TF away, then the 'demand' is removed and they will start flowing to where the game consider the next location where there is a demand.

Obviously the flow over RR hexes is much faster than dirt roads. Also the game does have a limitation that limits how far these items can 'travel' in a day. Plus other areas along the path 'may' be assigned a 'need' that your TF sitting at Shanghai. Which means it will take even longer to see any result.

But the bottom line is that it will take a long time to get fuel/oil from Singapore to Shanghai. A month+ would be a good estimate. This will also 'pull' Oil/Fuel from Sian in the middle of China as well.

The cities you need are in a line from the Indochina border along the major highways to Shanghai. Do not recall all the exact names, but this is really easy to figure out when you look at the China area. Of course as the Allies, you would like to prevent this for as long as possible [:)]

To slow this process down even further as the Allies, you do not actually need to keep the cities. Just parking a small unit on the road somewhere will put a major hurt on this [:@]

But this is just a small impact on getting the fuel home for Japan. It is still MUCH faster to just go to Singapore directly. But in the late war period, this can certainly help Japan keep limping along for a little while longer [:)]

[Numdydar]

For those that are interested here is the path in China you need to have cleared for this to work.

[dr.hal]

VERY informative Numdydar. Thanks. A few questions if I may. Since Hankow is a large port (4 originally and can build to 5) would it make more sense to "Build" the demand there and then ship from there to the mainland?

That is a "safer" port and can take the largest of Japanese tankers. It would seem to be sensible. But since when did that mean much?

Also, is the stationing of a tanker TF the only way to build "demand"? Could I not simply "Stockpile" the demand for fuel there???? Or any place that is a port (Shanghai?)? Hal

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal
Also, is the stationing of a tanker TF the only way to build "demand"? Could I not simply "Stockpile" the demand for fuel there????

Stockpile prevents materials from leaving the base, but does not build demand.
There is one neat way to quickly build demand for fuel in any port - make this base home to your ships, the more the better, heavy warships preferrably. As long as they are not using automatic retreats like from bombardments this does not mess things. Also park all your excess AKs in TFs set to Fusan.
Unfortunately, oil can't be pulled that easily, you need tankers loading.

[Numdydar]

I know it works for a TF but, now that you mention it might work for Fuel/Oil too. But the difference is that with supply you can change how much you want stored at a location which creates the 'demand' for supplies to flow. With fuel and oil you can only stockpile or not. So I do not know if Stockpiling in and of itself creates a demand or not.

My guess stockpiling will not create a demand as stockpiling just forces whatever gets there to stay and not travel out.

The reason that I recommend Shanghai is it is a shorter trip, i.e. less fuel used, than Hankow. Also you have a major road from Changsha which may help move things along faster.

Also all these thing move one base/day (as far as I know anyway). The amount of what moves is totally dependent on the connection between the two bases. RR is best, followed by major road, minor road, clear, and goes downhill from there [:)]

So it will take a minimum of 8 days just to travel from the Indochina border to Shanghai. Add the number of bases from there to Singapore and you will find why I said a month is a good estimate of the travel time. As other 'demands' could 'pull' things away from a direct route between the two.

[nikoslejeune]

From an earlier post, credit to Alfred and Paxmondo;

"start quote"
In post 12 PaxMondo has expanded on his "recipe". To search in the AE main forum for earlier posts of his you can use as keywords, "resources flow". Keep an eye out for his 3 December 2011 post. When searching do not pay much attention to a thread's title. Much better is to focus on reading listed posts from reliable forumites.


There is no particular secret, or for that matter difficulty, in creating the "magic highway". What is required is to create a demand for the raw materials at the chosen end port. This is achieved as follows.

1. Understand that the overland movement of raw materials (resources, fuel and oil) is essentially the same as that for supplies. It is computer controlled and cannot be directly controlled by the player. In all instances the overland movement occurs in response to a demand from a location which can trace a valid supply path.

2. Look up my Logistics 101 Guide for overland path movement frequency which is based on supply path cost. The table on pages 189 and 190 of the manual lists how supply path cost is determined.

3. There is both natural and artificial demand for raw materials. Natural demand comes from both industry and base infrastructure. Artificial demand comes from ships loading up with raw materials.

4. Since patch 2 there is no wastage on raw materials moved overland between bases which can trace a valid supply path. However when moving from base A to base Z with 24 intervening bases the flow moves sequentially between bases at a maximum rate of 1 base per day along the path. The overall time taken by the flow to arrive at base Z is dependent on the frequency of movement as per point 2 above.

5. Because Japan can expand existing industrial facilities as well as improve base infrastructure, the Japanese player has a greater capacity to increase the natural demand for raw materials than the Allied player who is limited to only improving base infrastructure. Both sides have the same capacity to generate artificial demand for raw materials.

6. In the absence of player intervention, raw materials produced at a base are sent to satisfy the natural demands from all bases which can trace a valid supply path back to the production site. Any surplus raw materials production is then sent to the largest port which can trace a valid supply path. The tie breaker when 2 or more equally sized ports are candidates, is the port with the highest spoilage limit.

7. The demand quantum for fuel is listed on the base screen in the "fuel requested" field.



for how this quantum is determined and accordingly what needs to be done to increase the natural demand for fuel.

8. There is no listing on the base screen of the demand quantum for resources and oil. Heavy Industry and Light Industry demand resources. Refineries demand oil.

9. To generate artificial demand for raw materials at a port requires the presence of ships loading raw materials for transportation to another port. If no ships are loading the artificial demand disappears and will not reappear until the arrival of ships with orders to take away raw materials.


The bottom line is that the end base must


• be the largest port

• have many anchored/home based ships

• be the biggest ship refuelling port for visiting ships

• be the largest airfield

• maintain a constant sea borne export trade



PaxMondo (and others) can amplify the above with concrete examples.

Alfred
"end quote"


Nick.

[GetAssista]

6. In the absence of player intervention, raw materials produced at a base are sent to satisfy the natural demands from all bases which can trace a valid supply path back to the production site. Any surplus raw materials production is then sent to the largest port which can trace a valid supply path. The tie breaker when 2 or more equally sized ports are candidates, is the port with the highest spoilage limit.

Thins means that Fusan (port 8 max) will never prevail over Singapore (port 9) naturally. I wonder how the tiebreaking works if bases are already at size 9 and there is no spoilage limit? Does larger airfield win in this case, and Shanghai can be made natural champion of the continent?

[dr.hal]

Great input Nick, I've never seen this posting before. Very interesting indeed. Thanks. Hal

[nikoslejeune]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

6. In the absence of player intervention, raw materials produced at a base are sent to satisfy the natural demands from all bases which can trace a valid supply path back to the production site. Any surplus raw materials production is then sent to the largest port which can trace a valid supply path. The tie breaker when 2 or more equally sized ports are candidates, is the port with the highest spoilage limit.

Thins means that Fusan (port 8 max) will never prevail over Singapore (port 9) naturally. I wonder how the tiebreaking works if bases are already at size 9 and there is no spoilage limit? Does larger airfield win in this case, and Shanghai can be made natural champion of the continent?

Player Intervention are the key words here [:)]

In general this is player driven and its up to you when playing vs person(s) if this is an unbalancing thing to do.
The argument sometime given that the Japanese could have done this (historically) can be countered by 'would the Allies have let this go on when they
hear about it(again historically). Blowing up railways and bridges might have become a strategic objective in China and along all of the route for that matter.
But thats another discussion and I dont wanna derail [:D] this thread.


EDIT: almost forgot to answer the question[&:] Port Arthur with refineries as pulling/pushing might be a good champion but ppl like Numdydar and
others mentioned would know, I merely guess[:-]

Nick.

[dr.hal]

Another aspect of the discussion is BUILDING railroads and bridges.... but that too is another thread..... a LONG one.

[rustysi]

There is no 'loss' rate as far as I know. What happens is that the amount of supply you get is reduced by the terrain it travels over. You don't actually loss any supplies/oil/fuel in the transport. If this is wrong, then I will happily stand corrected

AFAIK there's no loss for resources and oil. There is a 'loss' as to supply/fuel. When you have the cursor at a base and hit the hotkey '5' (IIRC) you see a display of numbers to the next base. Now I'm not exactly sure if that's a % of the supply/fuel getting to the next base, but its representative of some kind of loss in shipment. Maybe it just means it 'fell off the truck'.[:D]

Blowing up railways and bridges might have become a strategic objective in China and along all of the route for that matter.
But thats another discussion and I dont wanna derail this thread.

No, its not another discussion its very pertinent here. Even assuming that the infrastructure is there (and I doubt it was in place on the scale necessary), the game has no engine that would effectively allow for the interdiction of said route. That's why if I were playing as Japan I would not try to institute said route (and as the Allies not wish to play against a 'player' that would).

Numdydar's post #7 has raised a question. OK I've conquered the north of China and I'm trying to get the oil up north to move south. A while back I read you needed to create a demand at Port Arthur. OK, it took me a while to get the existing oil outta there, and then I parked some tankers there to draw oil and create a 'demand'. Not really happening. One thing I did notice on one turn was some oil at Hankow which must have come all the way down from the base all the way at the top of the map (I forget its name), because I noticed its oil level had dropped. So now I decided to try to get some of the northern China oil to draw to Hankow. So here's my question. By doing this will I inadvertently draw oil from places further west?

[Numdydar]

Yes. By having a TF at PA requesting to load oil, you are 'pulling' oil form wherever it happens to be where there is no higher demand. Since it is likely your TF is requesting more oil than your refineries in the area, anything above the refinery 'need' (since only refineries need oil)will start traveling to PA.

Also as I pointed out the route I tracked out in China is NOT that big of a deal. It is not like Japan is suddenly going to get mega tons of the Oil/Fuel to suddenly appear in Shanghai from points south. It is a very slow drip. So it is definitely not a game changer in any way. Just watch how long it will take your TF at PA to fill up (assuming all the oil in PA has already been sucked out. And that is pulling from an area a lot closer than Singapore. If you don't want to play that way, that's fine, but as A Japanese player myself, I would have no issue with anyone doing it. Simply because I know what a minimal impact it will have.

The numbers you see with the '5' key are the amount of supplies that 'could' reach the hex if a demand was there. So if you had a LCU in a hex that had 30% showing and that LCU needed 1,000 supplies, it would only get 300/day. So you would need to have that unit sit and not move or do anything for 4+ days before its supply needs were met. You are not sending out 1,000 supplies and 700 are being lost. It is just showing you how much you will get of the supplies that the hex requested. Which is why running around in the Jungle/Mountains/across rivers away from roads/RR/Ports is a good way to lose troops to attrition. Plus make them sitting ducks for an attacker that has a better supply posture than you do. [:(]

[rustysi]

Thanks Numdydar that cleared up some things for me. Ah, another day closer to 'getting' this game.[:)]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

For those that are interested here is the path in China you need to have cleared for this to work.

Really, you just need Nanning and Liuchow. That connects the roads. Granted, it's just a dirt road at first. You need Kweilin and Hengyang. You don't need Changsha - the grey road goes to Shanghai from Hengyang also. Just a thought.

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Another aspect of the discussion is BUILDING railroads and bridges.... but that too is another thread..... a LONG one.

Hex file updates mid-game. It can be done, but both players would need to change the map/pwhex files on the same turn. I've debated trying it, and then asking for it. Maybe yearly updates on 1/1/4x or 7/1/4x.

[Numdydar]

Well you should want to take Changsha anyway right? [:)]

You really want Liuchow (the first base East of Nanning) to Changsha due to the RR connection between them. Then the movement can be done from Changsha to Nanchang as well as to Wuchang. Not sure if having two directions for the flow improves things or not, but it might [:)]

As a follow-up to rustysi comment about using this. This method has a marginal impact. However since Japan's entire war effort is marginal already, having a marginal impact on an already marginal empire, is not going to make any difference to the ultimate outcome for Japan. But it will help out Japan at a time when it needs all the help it can get [:)]