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RE: Naval combat - 1/11/2016 2:31:06 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
But part of the conversion process was looking into the events and I learned a lot about how to use the editor and I actually like to use the editor now. It's a LOT easier than previously...

Thanks Larry. Are you working with a new version of the editor, or are you now just more familiar with the old one?

I'm actually learning how to use the editor by using the new one but once you've actually USED it once or twice even the old version
seems easier to use. I believe the new version is more utilitarian and changes are more straightforward. I'm glad I had experience
with the old one first however. That flattened the learning curve a LOT. If you're conversant with the old version the new version
will feel like the Cadillac version. If you're NOT conversant with the old version editor there's going to be still a sort of learning curve
to find out where everything is and how to get there but once you've learned to find your way around by paying attention to what the
status bar is saying it's not really ALL that difficult. I was using the editor in about 3 minutes. Changing events. And then working
with my B41 scenario has aquainted me with adding equipment and adding formations and renaming all kinds of things. I really
LIKE the new version. The old version was named the evil editor for a reason.

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"Throw the horse over the fence some hay...."

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 61
RE: Naval combat - 1/11/2016 2:59:53 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Larry pointed you to another one that I haven't downloaded or used, I was referring to the ODD program from here : http://yves.lr.pagesperso-orange.fr/ODD/ODD.htm

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 62
RE: Naval combat - 1/11/2016 3:16:17 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

I drafted a lengthy response re Curtis Lemay's various points, but lost it when posting


That happens all the time, I keep 'copying' my posts as I type so that when it is lost I can paste it back in.

Bob's posts are spot on, even though some don't want to hear what is being said. I'll add that if you need some more proof that the editor is not as bad as some think, in addition to what Larry just said, you must notice that no current or former scenario designers have the same opinion that the game is not worth buying due to the editor. Even on the developers forum this is not anyones opinion. The experienced scenario designers have the opinion that the editors can use some improvements. You guys are making our point by referencing programs that you are familiar with. I spend a lot of time thinking thru every suggestion that is made in this thread and others and honestly some are good and some are not. If you are dedicated and spend some time with TOAW you will get it, and if you are stumped you can quickly ask here how to do something. Or watch a video.

Also similar to what Larry said, I have a ton of fun using the editors. I'll repeat that - I have FUN ! I enjoy it so much that when people talk of changing the editors, I get scared.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 63
RE: Naval combat - 1/11/2016 3:26:23 PM   
sPzAbt653


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If you want to see an example of something, go to my site at http://www.dizium.net/TOAW and download the Lebensraum scenario. That was the first scenario I did and I did it before being a member here, so I did it all on my own, no help from anybody, I figured everything out and it wasn't difficult. I'll say it wasn't easy, but certainly not as bad as you may think. I'll also admit that Lebensraum was a mistake, I should never have picked such a complex scenario as a first design, and if you look at it you may laugh, but its a perfect example of what is possible. And I had fun doing it and was inspired to do more. And even more inspiring is the fact that we have Ralph, Bob and Eric continuing to make sure we have improvements while not screwing things up.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 64
RE: Naval combat - 1/11/2016 3:27:39 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

The arrows allow you to move a unit within its current formation (ie, put it as the first subformation rather than the last, etc.). To move a unit between formations you can copy/paste and delete the original unit. Here I've copied a company from the 15th Pz Regt to its parent division, without deleting the original yet:


Each unit's attributes are visible from the OOB screen, and are easily editable:


?? All of that is true of the Force Editor, too.

_____________________________

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Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 65
RE: Naval combat - 1/12/2016 12:15:08 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

The arrows allow you to move a unit within its current formation (ie, put it as the first subformation rather than the last, etc.). To move a unit between formations you can copy/paste and delete the original unit. Here I've copied a company from the 15th Pz Regt to its parent division, without deleting the original yet:


Each unit's attributes are visible from the OOB screen, and are easily editable:


?? All of that is true of the Force Editor, too.


There is absolutely no way in the Force Editor you can get a look at all of the units at one time and then expand formations, select units from that list for editing. You have to page through unit after unit or formation after formation to reach the one you want. It is needlessly time consuming and at times frustrating.

In any event it is painfully obvious we are going to be stuck with the same old editor or something very similar. I was hoping for some improvement in this area from a "new" TOAW.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 1/12/2016 1:16:36 AM >


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Post #: 66
RE: Naval combat - 1/12/2016 2:26:27 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Larry pointed you to another one that I haven't downloaded or used, I was referring to the ODD program from here : http://yves.lr.pagesperso-orange.fr/ODD/ODD.htm


sPzAbt653, thanks for this link, I think I'd seen this program at some point in the distant past. But one question-it looks like the data you've shown in your screen shot is read-only; at least the website in the link you showed me says that:

"ODD is, first and foremost, a planning tool. It is secondarily a debugging tool. It does not and cannot replace the TOAW editor, and it does not in any way modify TOAW, its associated files, or any scenario or save game files."

So is it an editor, or just a reader? Obviously a reader is less useful than an editor.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 1/12/2016 3:32:37 AM >

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 67
RE: Naval combat - 1/12/2016 2:31:46 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
?? All of that is true of the Force Editor, too.


Sigh...I was explaining to Larry what the arrows are for.

The key thing is that you can see the whole force, including formations and units, on one screen. Can you do that in the force editor as well?

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 68
RE: Naval combat - 1/12/2016 3:15:45 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
?? All of that is true of the Force Editor, too.


Sigh...I was explaining to Larry what the arrows are for.

The key thing is that you can see the whole force, including formations and units, on one screen. Can you do that in the force editor as well?


Alright, fair enough. Just remember that I'm not a mind reader.

But why isn't a scroll bar a sufficient solution? (If Force navigation is the issue). I don't see how collapsible formations gets you that much.

_____________________________

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Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 69
RE: Naval combat - 1/12/2016 3:41:58 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
But why isn't a scroll bar a sufficient solution? (If Force navigation is the issue). I don't see how collapsible formations gets you that much.


It might be, hard to say without seeing it. The thing that is hardest for me with the force editor is paging through dozens of different units.

Another pain was paging through the dozens (actually hundreds) of unit types. If I'm building a 1942 East Front scenario, I still had to wade through hundreds of units, including English, Japanese, Cold War Soviet, etc. to find what I neeeded.

Some way to filter these unit types would also reduce the tedium; at some point I tried to create a WWII East-Front specific database to use for this purpose, but when I deleted the irrelevant entries, the then-empty database slots were filled with random units, such as modern tanks, etc.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 1/12/2016 4:42:21 AM >

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 70
RE: Naval combat - 1/12/2016 4:46:25 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 6115
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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

So is it an editor, or just a reader?


Its an Editor, I don't understand the meaning of that quote in post #67.




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(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 71
RE: Naval combat - 1/12/2016 5:01:05 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 6115
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
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quote:

had to wade through hundreds of units, including English, Japanese, Cold War Soviet, etc. to find what I needed.


Bill Wilson made a database that might help you with that. Notice how he dealt with unneeded slots. It's the TOAW TOE file #3 on my site.




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(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 72
RE: Naval combat - 1/12/2016 5:43:15 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Bill Wilson made a database that might help you with that. Notice how he dealt with unneeded slots.

I messed around with that database quite a bit in 2012 and saw about listing "spare equipment", but continued to have problems; it's been a while, but IIRC the problem was that I could not reorder the remaining entries, so having "spare" slots didn't really resolve the issue of having to wade through hundreds of slots, simply they were now labeled "spare" instead of whatever they were before. And I couldn't get rid of, or even reorder, the list of national forces.

When TOAW IV comes out, hopefully I'll revisit all of this, including messing with the XML files; I might take you up on your offer for a tutorial at that point.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 1/12/2016 6:45:35 AM >

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 73
RE: Naval combat - 1/12/2016 2:38:04 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Another pain was paging through the dozens (actually hundreds) of unit types. If I'm building a 1942 East Front scenario, I still had to wade through hundreds of units, including English, Japanese, Cold War Soviet, etc. to find what I neeeded.


You mean equipment, not units, right? Again, at a minimum there will be a scroll bar.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 74
RE: Naval combat - 1/12/2016 5:12:41 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
You mean equipment, not units, right?


I suppose yes in TOAW terms, although since it includes squads, etc. I tend to call them units...

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 75
RE: Naval combat - 2/4/2016 12:14:36 AM   
Odenathus

 

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Sure it's far too late in the day to raise this but, IMHO, naval warfare would best be handled in a similar way to the war in the air. So you could still have actual units representing naval groups, but as well as moving and individually targeting opposing units, they could also remain in harbour but be set to the appropriate range for the scale of the scenario, and - like aircraft at present - on a setting of 'Interdiction' or 'Naval Superiority' or whatever sounds appropriate.

They would obviously have to be limited to striking targets on sea hexes, not land. This would mean in a large-scale game such as 'Europe Aflame' the British Mediterranean Fleet sitting in Alexandria (or Malta, Gibraltar, etc) would be set to 'Interdiction', and would have a chance of striking an Italian fleet or embarked land unit moving through the Mediterranean. This would be better for large-scale scenarios than the current system whereby you have to physically move the fleet unit adjacent, or almost adjacent, to an enemy fleet in order to engage it.

It would not preclude moving the fleet unit adjacent to an enemy one, nor prevent it being physically moved adjacent to a coast to be used for shore bombardment, but would allow for greater flexibility in naval warfare. I'm not an IT man, but the mechanics must be there as air units on interdiction do it all the time, very realistically.

As I say, probably a bit too late to suggest this now!

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 76
RE: Naval combat - 2/4/2016 2:10:46 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 6115
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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

the mechanics must be there as air units on interdiction do it all the time, very realistically.


An air unit based in Germany and set to Interdiction will Interdict enemy units in Poland, France and Yugoslavia within the radius from its base equally. To be 'realistic' would mean that air units could be assigned a hex from which they would have a patrol radius, and to be 'very realistic' air units could be given an area of hexes to patrol while not being limited to a circle.

(in reply to Odenathus)
Post #: 77
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