Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Defending Spain from the Allies

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> Defending Spain from the Allies Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/1/2015 3:31:27 PM   
alex_van_d


Posts: 296
Joined: 11/29/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
So, it's 1942 and the Allies are about to try and go through Spain to get back onto the continent. This picture shows the situation and the available Axis units to add to the Spanish forces.

There are also transports at sea with another 4 allied corp about to land in portugal, but no corp that can invade.

How should the Axis go about defending this?






Attachment (1)
Post #: 1
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/1/2015 4:07:43 PM   
Cohen

 

Posts: 1579
Joined: 10/5/2010
Status: offline
Embed picture in the post so we can see it!

(in reply to alex_van_d)
Post #: 2
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/1/2015 6:03:03 PM   
alex_van_d


Posts: 296
Joined: 11/29/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
Let's try again.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Cohen)
Post #: 3
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/1/2015 6:04:05 PM   
alex_van_d


Posts: 296
Joined: 11/29/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
Let me also add that there are actually 8 more allied corp about to land in Portugal, none of which can invade.

(in reply to alex_van_d)
Post #: 4
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/1/2015 6:33:53 PM   
Cohen

 

Posts: 1579
Joined: 10/5/2010
Status: offline
There is no real way to be honest, one more reason to seize Spain and Gibraltar earlier on in the war when Commonwealth is alone against the Axis.

I see you play with Unlimited Breakdown. That makes terribly easy for the CW to invade Portugal, because they can ship counteless corps in form of division via their SCS and land them with no issues, and reform them the turn after.

In this case I think you just need to have German troops at the ready to get into Spain. Alas if it was for me I'd put the rule that is in countless many other games, if Allies DoW Portugal, Spain jumps in the Axis immediately (as the virtually only reason the W.Allies would DoW Portugal is to go through Spain to get to Germany (and to France).


(in reply to alex_van_d)
Post #: 5
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/1/2015 7:06:01 PM   
Zartacla

 

Posts: 909
Joined: 1/8/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen
Alas if it was for me I'd put the rule that is in countless many other games, if Allies DoW Portugal, Spain jumps in the Axis immediately (as the virtually only reason the W.Allies would DoW Portugal is to go through Spain to get to Germany (and to France).




I've considered DoW'ing Portugal just for access to the Azores. Land based air there is very useful in defending convoys and the port can be nice for readying invasions or for convoy escort rotation. Isn't there an optional rule regarding Portugal allowing the US to use the Azores?

(in reply to Cohen)
Post #: 6
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/1/2015 8:55:12 PM   
Courtenay


Posts: 2389
Joined: 11/12/2008
Status: offline
No one has answered the original question. How should Spain be defended?

We don't have enough information: what impulse is it, and what turn? In other words, how long a turn is this going to be? What actions have the US and the CW taken? How much Allied naval gunfire support is available in the Bay of Biscay and the Western Med? How many Axis units are available to be railed in? How much Axis air is available?
How much Allied air is available? I don't see much Allied air, and I see almost no Axis air.

I assume that it will be a long turn. I would be very tempted to let most of Spain go, and defy the Allies to batter their way through the Pyrenees. Spain won't surrender until both Bilbao and Barcelona are taken. Make the Allies fight through mountains, behind rivers to get to them. However, without knowing what forces are available, I am by no means certain that this is the best answer.

_____________________________

I thought I knew how to play this game....

(in reply to Zartacla)
Post #: 7
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/1/2015 9:15:51 PM   
alex_van_d


Posts: 296
Joined: 11/29/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
Available Axis corp are what you see plus a few corp that can be railed in from anti-partisan duties or garrisoning the French coast. The French coast can be temporarily weakened since all the allied resources are unable to invade, or landing in Portugal. But there isn't much there to take, the axis are stretched pretty thin.

No Axis air available. It's all in Russia, or in the Med. (Maybe one long range night fighter could be re-based to Spain.) Right now the Allies are avoiding the Med as they just don't have the air cover to keep the Axis NAVs away.

Allied air in Spain consists of 2 short range fighters and 2 TAC. There are a couple of longe range fighters nearby that may be used in the Med, but they might also be available for Spain. There's one US ATR, but no PARAs. There's one STR in England, but that's it. The allied air force is pretty weak, or tied up trying to protect the convoys.

The Italian surface fleet is in the Western Med available for Shore Bombardment. (4 box at the moment and might stay at sea to stay available.)

The Allies have a large portion of the CW surface fleet in the Bay of Biscay available for Shore Bombardment since the Med is too dangerous for them at the moment.

It's Sep/Oct, the first impulses were entirely clear. The second pair of impulses has bad weather, but it looks like the allies might declare anyway.

One of the first questions is who should align Spain? The only corp on the border are German and the Italians don't have much to send, so it seems like Germany would the best choice.

After that, where do you sent the Spanish up?

(in reply to Courtenay)
Post #: 8
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/1/2015 9:16:47 PM   
alex_van_d


Posts: 296
Joined: 11/29/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
Left out that the Allied first impulses were Naval to move all their stuff around and protect the convoys, which is what they do almost every turn.

(in reply to alex_van_d)
Post #: 9
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/1/2015 10:59:42 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 2237
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
This is a bad move for the Allies in general, it seems to me. Spain should defend somewhat forward, stacked in mountain hexes, but only where they can't be outflanked. The three mountain ranges are mutually supporting in that regard. Allied units afloat won't reach the front all that quick, and they can probably only make one good attack against a mountain stack with what they have on the Portugal border and such a deficit of air. The Allies might be looking at as few as one more clear impulse of activity as bad weather creates more bad weather and hastens the end of the turn. If the weather goes against the Allies, a forward defense pays off, and helps keep Spanish resources on the rails to the newly enlarged industrial base of the Axis. The Axis have little choice but to rail in whatever they can from all over the map, so they might as well start out defending forward, the terrain is just as good there, and the reinforcing railhead locations need to be screened. So I would pick the hex that says Morena, the one that says Guadarrama, and the rail junction SW of Santander (weakest of the 3, in rain already, though needs Franco supplying it a hex to the east). The Spanish would also have the option of retreating one hex without giving up much in such a scenario.

Spain is the wrong theater for Rommel and additional Panzers though, I would send him back to Russia or in reserve in northern France if the Allies have many AMPHs (sounds like they don't)...but the Axis need their rail moves to reinforce Spain, so he might as well slog through the mountains for a few turns anyway.

I might be tempted to put a raider type unit in Seville also, to temporarily divert Allied units there.

In J/F 43, the Axis forces could consider a bear hug all the Allied forces in reach and hope for a good partisan roll, unless the Allied rear areas are full of unused aircraft.

Whichever Axis Major Power aligns Spain should build out their INF and MIL pools so the Spanish can be replaced, as Bilbao and Barcelona will hold out for a long time, particularly Barcelona. The Allies just freed up Italian freedom of action and production for quite some time to come and the Allies won't be able to easily get Shore Bombardment on the hex. The Axis might also be able to shift NAV resources to contest the Bay of Biscay, though this is more difficult right where new British production and American reinforcements appear.

The Axis should send in all the MTN troops they can muster, even Antonescu + the Rumanian MTN. They should also send the Allies a thank-you cake at Christmas.

I've always thought it a pity that the Spanish get not one Convoy Point they could use to cause mayhem via using the Canaries as a base for an impulse or into a second turn with a little luck. The TRS can accomplish that however, hmm....

I also would probably be unable to resist placing a unit in Tangiers to be immediately reinforced via TRS delivery, just to hold a couple Allied corps in Gibraltar and put a supplied Axis raider base (+NAV perhaps?) on the African convoy routes and push back on the Allies over the winter, depending on remaining Axis naval assets, now increased by the Spanish fleet. This would be a chance for the Axis navies to take a little initiative for themselves. If the Italian NAV can secure the West Med, in Nov/Dec a couple Italian BBs could escort a Spanish supply run to the Canaries, from whence a couple Spanish cruisers set sail immediately... sounds like the U-Boats are in play ... Japan approves of this scenario.


The Allies might wish they have a Free French Dakar already garrisoned as well...particularly on the rare chance it is the current capital of Free France. Maybe it could be worth using up the Blue Division this way, maybe in conjunction with some shenanigans in those sea areas via Tangier (TRS moves out, re-org Blue Division on a land impulse if not found by the Royal Navy). If the Axis reach Dakar they could have a little fun building a TERRitorial unit ... but probably a unit in Spanish Sahara just results in one less Allied unit in Spain and the Saharan unit could wander towards Morocco instead.

< Message edited by brian brian -- 7/2/2015 12:00:53 AM >

(in reply to alex_van_d)
Post #: 10
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/2/2015 4:34:10 AM   
ACMW

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 11/25/2006
From: Norway
Status: offline
Although you are a little feistier than am I, I pretty much agree with your analysis. Without seeing the board it is a bit difficult to be sure, but it sounds as if the WAllies are undercooked for Spain, in which case a measured forward deployment seems just the ticket. If not, then Courtney's Pyrenees defence is required.

So, if undercooked, I, as the Axis, would be happy as a pig in ****. If not undercooked, it could be pretty unpleasant for me, particularly if and as the WAllies build air domination in the area. In this case, though, I'm still happy. Maybe happier. Because with air dominance and adequate lift there is a deal more mischief that they could cause than they can by fiddling around in Iberia. Unless they propose to batter their way through the Pyrenees, the main benefits of Spain for the WAllies are: forward airbases for projection into the W Med and more ports / coastal hexes for units earmarked for invasions into SFrance / Sardinia / Italy. Fine. But these can be gained much more easily in North Africa ... maybe more or less en passant...because of the fear of prison camp North Africa for the Wehrmacht. This is much less of a fear in Spain as Axis are not so dependent on SLOCs. That said ...

One slight word of caution, though. With adequate lift, the WAllies are extremely flexible. There is some risk, some time in the future, of landings behind the Axis defences (Anvil and/or Overlord). This either needs to be insured against or Axis commitments to Spain need to be moderated.

Cheers

Adrian



_____________________________

The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons. (Emerson)

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 11
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/2/2015 11:53:44 AM   
alex_van_d


Posts: 296
Joined: 11/29/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
The Allies are very short of lift. They have only 1 CW Amph and 1 US Amph on the map at all. That's why they went into Portugal and into Spain. It was the only way to get their rather substantial ground forces into action at all. We'll see how well it goes.

I'll go with the forward defense and update you as it goes.

(in reply to ACMW)
Post #: 12
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/2/2015 12:28:43 PM   
alex_van_d


Posts: 296
Joined: 11/29/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
So here it is one turn later. The Spanish played a forward defense. The allies got a few lucky ground strikes in and flipped a lot of the spanish defenders. Then the spanish risked re-establishing supply lines while the Allies tried to ooze around. Which is why the Spanish are so scattered. But the turn ended before the allies cut supply and launched no attaches. Now the Axis get to move first in really bad weather, which means there's a chance to keep the Spanish forces alive a little longer.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to alex_van_d)
Post #: 13
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/2/2015 1:11:14 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 2237
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
note my idea of ever getting supply to the Canaries couldn't happen as you can only trace supply overseas once. but Tangier can be supplied via West Med and I would (would have?) definitely put that into play. looks like the Allies have already moved the African convoy route out of Cape St Vincent, but that means they have also probably already moved it to where they can't as easily use aircraft to escort the convoys. A pity the Axis seemed to pass on this chance to pressure the Allies in additional areas. Fighting in the Med is all about air assets and air bases; saving the Spanish fleet for that struggle accomplishes far less than using it to raid the mid-Atlantic. But then surface fleets are just kind of superfluous when the Allies have a bottomless pile of Light Cruisers to send everywhere.

The Allies are operating on exterior lines in a major way and if I got to pick where to fight the bulk of the Allied land forces in the spring of 1943, I would pick in an Axis allied Spain for sure.

These Allies will gain some additional access to the West Med by the spring but will not see the Garonde valley in France until late summer 1943 and Italy might survive into 1944. The Allies should have North Africa in hand after the collapse of Vichy though; even Libya must be conquered with Australians fighting in Spain. Access to airbases on the Italian Coast would have been far more useful.

(in reply to alex_van_d)
Post #: 14
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/2/2015 3:28:30 PM   
alex_van_d


Posts: 296
Joined: 11/29/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
The challenge I always find with sending out surface raiders is where do you get the Naval moves to send out the surface units? If I could have aligned Spain with Italy that might be less of a problem, but there just weren't enough Italian land units to reinforce Spain at all. Italy has to defend Sardinia and it's own coast, as the Allies are attempting to get into position there.

It's a struggle to get the really large German sub fleet out regularly as it is, let alone getting the Spanish out too. I actually suspect the Spanish ships will never leave port, the Germans are just too busy with land moves. The occasional combined will get the subs out and perhaps the occasional raid by the German surface raiders.

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 15
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/2/2015 4:49:07 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 2237
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
Yep. Italy has a better situation with Action Limits, even if you can't send Italians to Spain.

Thanks for the vicarious game play though.

Out of curiosity, at the time, who aligned Portugal? I would pick Japan for that, unless maybe it was real early and the South Africans were set up to take their colonies quickly.

(in reply to alex_van_d)
Post #: 16
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/2/2015 7:55:11 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 6095
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
If there aren't any Allied units in Dakar, I would always put the Spanish division in that area. It is fast and can run havoc in that area if it isn't contained fast enough. The same type of trick can be used by placing the CAV in Spanish controlled Rio Muni, if the Free French capital is near and can be taken by it. Nothing better than another conquest of French (again halving the Free French force pools). And the road to Belgian Kongo is near too. A 2-5 in late war in Spain can't do a lot there...

Offense is often the best defense...

Tangier is another nice place. Put a Spanish unit in there and see if you can get an Italian naval presence in that port. It ties up expensive Allied troops to take that port.


_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 17
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/2/2015 8:49:38 PM   
alex_van_d


Posts: 296
Joined: 11/29/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
Oh, my brain hurts with new ideas about how to play! Japan aligning Portugal, Spanish divs and corp running amok. I have so much to learn!

Too bad I did none of the above! I'm far too defensive minded.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 18
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/3/2015 1:35:41 AM   
alex_van_d


Posts: 296
Joined: 11/29/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
So here's the situation a turn later. Bad weather continues to pay off for the Axis. So far not one Spanish unit has been destroyed. If the Allies continue with taking a naval in their first impulse like they have almost all game then most of the Spanish will escape from their forward positions and meet up with the arriving German units to create a fairly strong defense in the middle of Spain.

For the Allies the only positive part is that this has drawn some German units away from Russia. All the German MNT have arrived. (Although Lenningrad still fell without their winter bonus help.)




Attachment (1)

(in reply to alex_van_d)
Post #: 19
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/3/2015 10:09:42 PM   
WIF_Killzone

 

Posts: 257
Joined: 4/30/2009
Status: offline
Don't think attacking Spain has value proposition as its so defensible, look at all the mountains and the choke point between Bayonne and Barcelona including non passible hex sides, the Alias are going to be bled white for a long long time.

(in reply to alex_van_d)
Post #: 20
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/5/2015 11:38:32 PM   
alex_van_d


Posts: 296
Joined: 11/29/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
You're absolutely right. Except that I think the Allies made the best choice in a bad situation.

Russia was on the ropes, they desperately needed some German units and more importantly attention and action limits to be drawn away from her.

The Western Allies faced to serious problems, both stemming from the fact that they had massively overbuilt their land forces. (Stacks of corp piled up in UK and USA that took many, many turns to transport to Spain and there's still more on the way.)

1) Only two Amphs on any map (One US and one CW) and one MAR. The MAR was in the Pacific trying to keep the Japanese honest. Those two Amphs would support a Dieppe style raid that would probably result in the historical Dieppe raid and have little effect.

2) Axis air dominance in the Med making it extremely hazardous for the Allies to operate in the Med at all.

So they chose to invade Portugal and try to get through Spain.

It has been successful to a limited extent for the Allies as there are approaching a dozen German corp, one HQ and 5 or 6 air units that could have been in Russia.

Russia has managed to stabilize it's lines for now, so perhaps the invasion of Spain will turn out to be a good move.

(in reply to WIF_Killzone)
Post #: 21
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/6/2015 12:31:45 AM   
alex_van_d


Posts: 296
Joined: 11/29/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
So here is the current situation another turn later. The Allies made a little bit of progress, killing off 4 spanish corp and taking a little bit of ground despite bad weather. They've also been steadily reinforcing. We'll see what the long summer turns bring.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to alex_van_d)
Post #: 22
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/7/2015 5:51:19 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1805
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
Are the Allies going to kill the Spanish IV Infantry and Spanish Infantry HQ next



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to alex_van_d)
Post #: 23
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/7/2015 6:44:46 PM   
Cohen

 

Posts: 1579
Joined: 10/5/2010
Status: offline
By the looks the Allies ploughed quickly through the Axis defences of the Spanish forces...
And the Axis seem short of reserves.

I suggest to mix 1 Spanish and 1 German unit so that when you lose 1 you can elect the Spanish (That can be produced anew on the spot pratically instead of being railed over).
In the clear hex in the north you sort of want 2 MECH / ARM and 1 sacrificable division for losses (though air cover seems short too).
And in general keep the mountain / river line ready to jump on any "bad roll" of the Allies.

The problem usually is that Axis do not have the forces for that and push in Russia too.

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 24
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/7/2015 7:06:28 PM   
CrusssDaddy

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 8/6/2004
Status: offline
Please consider keeping this thread going as a game report. It's interesting to see alternative strategies played out.

(in reply to Cohen)
Post #: 25
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/7/2015 8:54:48 PM   
alex_van_d


Posts: 296
Joined: 11/29/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
As long as there is still fighting in Spain I'll keep posting it.

I'm certainly learning a lot as I've never defended Spain this way before. Last time I had conquered Spain as the axis and I quickly retreated to the Pyrenees with a few speed bumps for the allies to crush. (And a very heavily fortified Gibraltar with MNT, forts, ART etc... which lasted a long long time.)

(in reply to CrusssDaddy)
Post #: 26
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/8/2015 12:26:26 AM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4255
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WIF_Killzone

Don't think attacking Spain has value proposition as its so defensible, look at all the mountains and the choke point between Bayonne and Barcelona including non passable hex sides, the Alias are going to be bled white for a long long time.


it is better then the Greece/Yugoslavia option..

_____________________________

Peyton manning is a God and the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

(in reply to WIF_Killzone)
Post #: 27
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/8/2015 12:55:15 AM   
alex_van_d


Posts: 296
Joined: 11/29/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
Here is the first Axis impulse of the next turn. The Allies took Naval impulses in order to move all their fleets giving time for the Germans to re-organize. And yes there are German units hiding under all the Spanish units. Let those brave Spaniards die for their country and hopefully the Germans will survive to fight another day.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 28
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/8/2015 2:18:32 PM   
AbwehrX


Posts: 224
Joined: 10/27/2013
Status: offline
Curious how the Japanese are doing in light of this bulk commitment to the Spanish expedition? While our opponents focused on the Med, Japan ended up taking Burma and invaded India in summer 42. By summer 43, Indian front collapsed and Japanese units occupied oil fields in Persia, Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

(in reply to alex_van_d)
Post #: 29
RE: Defending Spain from the Allies - 7/8/2015 3:40:18 PM   
alex_van_d


Posts: 296
Joined: 11/29/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
The Japanese were in rough shape, they suffered massive losses to Convoys due to subs and were desperately short of land units everywhere. Production dropped as low as 9 BPs. But they have recovered mostly in the last few turns. Production is back up to 26 BPs and they've got a small reserve of CPs built up. More land units have been arriving and they now have decent garrisons in most important locations of their defensive sphere.

What's more the CW suffered a major reverse when their entire land force in Burma was cut off from supply and flipped (Very lucky ground strikes with CVPs on 1s) and then destroyed OOS. It had been a stalemate in that theatre, but now the Japanese are advancing towards India and the CW is scrambling for reinforcements.

To make it worse the Italians just launched their MAR and a div to attack a very poorly garrisoned Egypt and have landed next to the Suez Canal closing it. A large CW army is in Libya and has conquered it, but the Italians have a Mar and div in Egypt which is defended by one very poor territorial. and the Palestinian Territorial is nearby, but that hardly counts for anything.

On the other hand the Communist Chinese are very strong and only being held off by a liberal application of Japanese TAC. The Nationalists are also in good shape and are quite far forward.

The Japanese and American fleets are in rough parity with the US beginning to put pressure on with divisional invasion around the periphery. The US also has a lot of land based air covering many sea zones. Not enough to push into the defensive sphere yet, but it will be soon.

(in reply to AbwehrX)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> Defending Spain from the Allies Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.123