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RE: T1 south - 7/3/2015 2:15:59 PM   
Callistrid

 

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VL is more important then Kiev is.
VL is close to the german supply lines, and, with the baltic rail repair rules, threat more Leningrad and Moskov, then Kiev threat D-town, and Kharkov.

Crossing the Dnyepr arounk Kiev is not a real threat, because the german is far from his logistical lines, and from important industrial centers.

In sappers side, the soviets must fall back from the center region, because if the german troops will slowly encircle the huge area, the soviets can't evacute those troops.

with +1, the soviet must concentrate his forces close together, in a stablie front lines, and defend key locations, like Moscow, and southern area.

< Message edited by Callistrid -- 7/3/2015 3:22:30 PM >

(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 61
RE: T1 south - 7/3/2015 2:24:30 PM   
MattFL

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

But remember, breeching the Dnper AGS turn 3-5 leaves the Pz with no infantry support; even more so in your case with so many AGS pockets to reduce. Kiev is a disaster for the Soviets, but remember coordination, coordination. What a start against the best overall WITE player, IMO>


Wow you and I really do play a different game.

Those pockets are now forever sealed and GHC infantry will be at Kiev in decent strength on Turn 3 and firmly across the Dnepr on Turn 4. Leave behind very few units and let the Romanians clean up the pocket with limited German Infantry support. Who cares if it takes 1 turn to reduce it or 4 turns....go east my good man, go east, that's where the war is...




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RE: T1 south - 7/3/2015 2:59:00 PM   
MattFL

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

VL is more important then Kiev is.
VL is close to the german supply lines, and, with the baltic rail repair rules, threat more Leningrad and Moskov, then Kiev threat D-town, and Kharkov.

Crossing the Dnyepr arounk Kiev is not a real threat, because the german is far from his logistical lines, and from important industrial centers.

In sappers side, the soviets must fall back from the center region, because if the german troops will slowly encircle the huge area, the soviets can't evacute those troops.

with +1, the soviet must concentrate his forces close together, in a stablie front lines, and defend key locations, like Moscow, and southern area.


I would agree in general with this, but not on Turn 2. Normally GHC breaks PSKOV line on Turn 2, this really isn't much different than that (it is, but not SO much). GHC never breaks the Dnepr in the south on Turn 2. In my experience, SHC voluntarily gives up Kiev around Turn 4-6 when GHC breaks the Dnepr further southeast. So way ahead of schedule in the south and if this was my game I would be more concerned about that right now. Even with very low movement, the Panzers will continue to flip hexes allowing the infantry to press east every turn. I guess we'll see how the next few turns play out, maybe I'm wrong and you're right...

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RE: T1 south - 7/3/2015 3:53:17 PM   
HITMAN202


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"GHC infantry will be at Kiev in decent strength on Turn 3" ??? The nearest inf div at Rovno is 20 MP's away and nearest to Proskuru is 15 MP's distant. My addition may be faulty, but GHC infantry at Kiev in "decent strength" is pure fantasy, my friend. Then you also have major supply problems on Turn 4. I may be wrong.

_____________________________

WITE is a good addiction with no cure.

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RE: T1 south - 7/3/2015 4:05:41 PM   
chaos45

 

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I disagree on 50% transportation levels.....against a skilled German player the Soviets will lose far more industry than historical. If both players play a solid game you should end up with at least close to 1942 campaign start industry as the soviets at 50% transportation I highly doubt u will have that much left.

AS its is the soviets have to write off Minsk/Mogilev and everything pretty much in front of the D-Z area. That already drops you very close to historical industry losses right there. Any other major losses after that and you are doing worse than historical in industry.

Maybe .05 will slow the German advance so much it wont be an issue but not having play .05 yet not going to say 50% transportation is needed for a balanced game. In fact so far me and Pelton are having a very close to historical match with .03/.04, I did feel the German logistics were maybe abit to generous but if .05 has just a slight nerf to that I can imagine two players that understand strategy and tactics should have a roughly even match up short of major mistakes.

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RE: T1 south - 7/3/2015 4:06:52 PM   
MattFL

 

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Maybe I'm missing something but I see GHC infantry (purple) 4 hexes east of Rovno and 16 MPs from Kiev....If he pushes all them of east he should have around 4-8 INF Divisions plus a cav division in and around Kiev on West side of Dnepr and be across in the strength on Turn 4. Even with **** supply, the infantry will still have 10 or so MP. In the worst case if the Armor has 10-20 MP, it's still flipping about 8-10 hexes further east which the infantry with their 10 MPs then occupy the next turn.

Of course, we are again getting ahead of ourselves speculating.... But I guarantee you that you will see GHC infantry in and around Kiev on German T3 and across the Dnepr on TUrn 4, minimum 4 divisions, possibly up to 8.....

< Message edited by mattp -- 7/3/2015 5:09:20 PM >

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RE: T1 south - 7/3/2015 7:12:21 PM   
Callistrid

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mattp


quote:

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

VL is more important then Kiev is.
VL is close to the german supply lines, and, with the baltic rail repair rules, threat more Leningrad and Moskov, then Kiev threat D-town, and Kharkov.

Crossing the Dnyepr arounk Kiev is not a real threat, because the german is far from his logistical lines, and from important industrial centers.

In sappers side, the soviets must fall back from the center region, because if the german troops will slowly encircle the huge area, the soviets can't evacute those troops.

with +1, the soviet must concentrate his forces close together, in a stablie front lines, and defend key locations, like Moscow, and southern area.


I would agree in general with this, but not on Turn 2. Normally GHC breaks PSKOV line on Turn 2, this really isn't much different than that (it is, but not SO much). GHC never breaks the Dnepr in the south on Turn 2. In my experience, SHC voluntarily gives up Kiev around Turn 4-6 when GHC breaks the Dnepr further southeast. So way ahead of schedule in the south and if this was my game I would be more concerned about that right now. Even with very low movement, the Panzers will continue to flip hexes allowing the infantry to press east every turn. I guess we'll see how the next few turns play out, maybe I'm wrong and you're right...

quote:

ly GHC breaks PSKOV line on Turn 2, this really isn't much different than that (it is, but not SO much). GHC never breaks the Dnepr in the south on Turn 2. In my experience, SHC voluntarily gives up Kiev around Turn 4-6 when GHC breaks the Dnepr further southeast. So


Mattp, forget the common strategy. With 50 % transport rate won't work. The german can break the Kiev line, because it's the only side, where its possible to reach on T02.

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RE: T1 south - 7/3/2015 7:47:54 PM   
MattFL

 

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quote:

Mattp, forget the common strategy. With 50 % transport rate won't work. The german can break the Kiev line, because it's the only side, where its possible to reach on T02.


Absolutely, which is why I would never take SHC with reduced transport. All I'm saying is that the situation as it is now, the south worries me more than the north. But with 50% transport, it's sort of like the difference between a broken back and a fractured skull. Sucks all around...

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RE: T1 south - 7/3/2015 7:49:03 PM   
MattFL

 

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quote:

Mattp, forget the common strategy. With 50 % transport rate won't work. The german can break the Kiev line, because it's the only side, where its possible to reach on T02.


Absolutely, which is why I would never take SHC with reduced transport. All I'm saying is that the situation as it is now, the south worries me more than the north. But with 50% transport, it's sort of like the difference between a broken back and a fractured skull. They both suck...



< Message edited by mattp -- 7/3/2015 8:50:09 PM >

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Post #: 69
RE: T1 south - 7/3/2015 9:53:47 PM   
mktours

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

I disagree on 50% transportation levels.....against a skilled German player the Soviets will lose far more industry than historical. If both players play a solid game you should end up with at least close to 1942 campaign start industry as the soviets at 50% transportation I highly doubt u will have that much left.

AS its is the soviets have to write off Minsk/Mogilev and everything pretty much in front of the D-Z area. That already drops you very close to historical industry losses right there. Any other major losses after that and you are doing worse than historical in industry.

Maybe .05 will slow the German advance so much it wont be an issue but not having play .05 yet not going to say 50% transportation is needed for a balanced game. In fact so far me and Pelton are having a very close to historical match with .03/.04, I did feel the German logistics were maybe abit to generous but if .05 has just a slight nerf to that I can imagine two players that understand strategy and tactics should have a roughly even match up short of major mistakes.

It is easy to see that 50% transport level could hurt the soviet side, but probably people also miss that how my house rules and game setting could significantly slow the Germany advance (I am probably the only person who is willing to adopt these against Germany house rules). We will see in later turns that how strong 1:1=2:1 is, and how the airbase house rules could slow down the Germany advance.
To me, with all the house rules and game settings, I myself would be more than willing to set transport level at 50% and play the soviet side, I believe Saper shared the same opinion with me when we started the game, with 1:1=2:1 and old blizzard on his side, and all the house rules which slowing down the Pzs, he was confident to play the game.
But I agree that this is a new try, and if Saper lose this game (just if), it might be very likely due to that he had set the soviet transport level too harsh, I will be very willing to acknowledge this if I win (just if), that is never a problem with me.
But honestly, I myself was expecting a very difficult game when I started this game.

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 70
RE: T1 south - 7/3/2015 9:57:20 PM   
mktours

 

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Thanks for all the comments and discussions! They are much appreciated.
Due to a busy life, I might not be able to participate all the discussions and answer all the questions, please accept my sorry if I happen to fail to notice your question and answer, that is not intended.

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RE: T1 south - 7/3/2015 11:21:54 PM   
MattFL

 

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I don't think the house rules necessarily slow down the German advance.

Relative to air drops, German Air Supply must originate from within 5 MP of a railhead, so the transport planes sort of have to stay behind in any case. Not moving them until after they've dropped supplies is no big deal and not moving panzers after they've received drops, which usually happens at the end of a turn in any case, is not too much a problem. HQ Buildup at 20 (instead of 25) is really not that important either as I'm sure you've worked out the first few turns and after the first few turns, it tends to matter less as the rail heads get closer to the front. So really I don't accept the premise that your house rules are going to slow the GHC very much. Perhaps a small amount, but not nearly as much as the lack of Soviet Transport is going to hurt them, particularly in the first two turns when they need all of that capacity to move units. I know for me personally, on Turn 1 and Turn 2 I use every single point of rail capacity positioning my units where I need them, so I see a serious imbalance in the house rules particularly over the first 2-3 turns if they include Rail Capacity at 50%.

I think the house rules give the illusion of slowing the Germans down but really hurt the SHC much more in the early game. There is no denying of course that the house rules with +1 and normal blizzard are going to blatantly favor the SHC. But they have to survive in order to reap those benefits.... I guess we'll see as so far I haven't seen a game played with your opening past the first few turns. So it will be interesting to see how it does play out, so please do continue to post AAR updates as time permits.



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Post #: 72
RE: T1 south - 7/4/2015 12:43:26 AM   
mktours

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mattp

I don't think the house rules necessarily slow down the German advance.

Relative to air drops, German Air Supply must originate from within 5 MP of a railhead, so the transport planes sort of have to stay behind in any case. Not moving them until after they've dropped supplies is no big deal and not moving panzers after they've received drops, which usually happens at the end of a turn in any case, is not too much a problem. HQ Buildup at 20 (instead of 25) is really not that important either as I'm sure you've worked out the first few turns and after the first few turns, it tends to matter less as the rail heads get closer to the front. So really I don't accept the premise that your house rules are going to slow the GHC very much. Perhaps a small amount, but not nearly as much as the lack of Soviet Transport is going to hurt them, particularly in the first two turns when they need all of that capacity to move units. I know for me personally, on Turn 1 and Turn 2 I use every single point of rail capacity positioning my units where I need them, so I see a serious imbalance in the house rules particularly over the first 2-3 turns if they include Rail Capacity at 50%.

I think the house rules give the illusion of slowing the Germans down but really hurt the SHC much more in the early game. There is no denying of course that the house rules with +1 and normal blizzard are going to blatantly favor the SHC. But they have to survive in order to reap those benefits.... I guess we'll see as so far I haven't seen a game played with your opening past the first few turns. So it will be interesting to see how it does play out, so please do continue to post AAR updates as time permits.




Mattp,
You are really a bit careless about the house rules, or you didn’t play Germany very often.
According to the house rules, Germany airbase could not move until the end of the turn, and they are forbidden to enter newly conquered land, so it makes impossible for air dropping to front troops (they have not airbase nearby to help accepting fuel).
Indeed, after T2, my Pzs spent all of their fuel in stock, and since I can’t air-drop fuel to them because they don’t have airbase nearby, they stop for one turn.
I shared this AAR with a bit reluctance because I am doing very well currently in this game, and normally, I want to show respect to my opponent and don’t show off the game if I am doing too good.
Is the transport level setting at 50% the reason that I am doing well in this game? Likely, but is there other reasons that cause me to do well? That is also likely.
So, out of respect of Saper, I have decided to cancel the AAR. I apologize to all the people who had been interested in this AAR. The house rules and transport setting are up to people to test by themselves. It is not hard.
Please understand my choice, as I see respecting my opponent the first priority.

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RE: T1 south - 7/4/2015 1:19:32 AM   
MattFL

 

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I think your opening is great, I've said so in this thread and referenced it in others. It's probably the most brutally efficient I personally have ever seen. Your panzers would most probably have to stop on Turn 3 even with more fuel as you've pushed so far east so fast that you really have to wait for infantry support. It's only T 1.5 according to the AAR, so it's very early to tell what impact in the long term the house rules would make, but you are doing about as well as a German can be on Turn 1.5. Each player plays a bit differently and even you have said that you feel SHC has made mistakes on Turn 1, so who knows if your success is due simply to your playing well (which you obviously are), or due to SHC Lack of capacity, or maybe SHC playing too quickly as you have suggested (or a combination of all 3). So when I reference capacity as a house rule which hurts the SHC, it is referenced to my own play style where I depend on the capacity to fight the campaign I want to fight. For other players who perhaps choose a more fall back strategy, or who are just better players, maybe it's not a problem, I really have no idea.

If you don't feel like continuing the AAR, by all means that your choice. I for one am very curious about it obviously particularly how a strong SHC player responds to it and where it leads to over 10+ turns, but c'est la vie. Thanks for taking the time to post the turns you did post.









(in reply to mktours)
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RE: T1 south - 7/29/2015 9:30:14 AM   
mktours

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mattp


I think your opening is great, I've said so in this thread and referenced it in others. It's probably the most brutally efficient I personally have ever seen. Your panzers would most probably have to stop on Turn 3 even with more fuel as you've pushed so far east so fast that you really have to wait for infantry support. It's only T 1.5 according to the AAR, so it's very early to tell what impact in the long term the house rules would make, but you are doing about as well as a German can be on Turn 1.5. Each player plays a bit differently and even you have said that you feel SHC has made mistakes on Turn 1, so who knows if your success is due simply to your playing well (which you obviously are), or due to SHC Lack of capacity, or maybe SHC playing too quickly as you have suggested (or a combination of all 3). So when I reference capacity as a house rule which hurts the SHC, it is referenced to my own play style where I depend on the capacity to fight the campaign I want to fight. For other players who perhaps choose a more fall back strategy, or who are just better players, maybe it's not a problem, I really have no idea.

If you don't feel like continuing the AAR, by all means that your choice. I for one am very curious about it obviously particularly how a strong SHC player responds to it and where it leads to over 10+ turns, but c'est la vie. Thanks for taking the time to post the turns you did post.


mattp,
There is a big difference between a PzD having 100% fuel and 0 fuel, no matter what the situation is. In T3, the 3rd motorize div in LUKI city had 0 fuel in this game, in my game with Marquo, it had 100% fuel.
Judged from your comments, I see you are likely to be a good player, so I invite you to play the GHC with the same game setting and house rules, which you are confidently believing as in favor of the GHC, I set the soviet transport level to 50% and play the soviet side.

< Message edited by mktours -- 7/29/2015 10:31:44 AM >

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RE: T1 south - 7/29/2015 6:01:04 PM   
MattFL

 

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In Turn 3 (and probably Turn 4 for that matter) the Mot Div in Luki doesn't need fuel, he just needs to sit there and enjoy the sights in Luki. It's not as if he was going to advance further east without any infantry for a few turns. But regardless, I see your point about the difference in fuel if that's the case.

I'm a good Russian player, I'm only getting back into the Germans now with my 2nd game just gotten underway since probably 2011 or so. Regardless, the point I was making back when we were discussing this is that the rail capacity rule is too harsh because of Turns 1 & 2 when the Russians need the capacity to shift their units around. After that, it's probably not so harsh as enough industry typically gets out anyway and there is more than enough to move units after the early turns.

I currently have two games going, but what I'd like to do is to try to play the Russians against you. As I said, your opening is devastating and I would find it challenging to try to stop it. Tell you what, I'll message you when one of these two games are done and we can discuss it further if you're interested. Perhaps I will try Germans, depends on which of my games ends first, GHC game or SHC game....




(in reply to mktours)
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