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Blizzard bug or the way it should be...

 
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Blizzard bug or the way it should be... - 3/15/2003 8:51:01 PM   
PzB


Posts: 5060
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		I started a 41 pbem campaign, first one in a long time.
V2.3 should fix earlier problems with german units shattering en masse during the first winter.

I took Leningrad and Moscow by november 41 and prepared for the winter. Yeah right! No matter how much I try, I can't prevent my units from shattering.

70% readiness and 50 op's and they still shatter as grass against the sickle. From late november and to 080242, there's been continous blizzards and my front is reeling.

type............On map.In Pool.Total
infantry squads 26743 48 26791

27k squads? This is less than I had in mid 44 after starting the 43 campaign :p

Another month of blizzards and there will not be any units left at all. Is it just me or is this as it should be : }

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Post #: 1
- 3/17/2003 4:12:05 PM   
Tom1939

 

Posts: 789
Joined: 11/23/2000
From: Hungary
Status: offline 		We play wirpossum v4 with shane using wir 3.3. We aborted this game because of the blizzard bug when we used wir 3.2. We restarted now at the start of blizzards. Shane has made a defensive line well before the blizzards so he has high readiness and entrenchment. So far we had 1 week of blizzards where his troops held my attacks very well (as they should). With wir 3.2 they shattered like eggs. We had some snow, but it is blizzard again. I will keep attack him as hard as I can. If there is anybody intrested I can make some reports about this blizzard campaign.

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 2
- 3/19/2003 10:50:27 AM   
matt.buttsworth

 

Posts: 797
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Weimar, Germany
Status: offline 		Yes please. I would be interested to see how the blizzard goes. Also how many men the Germans had to recover from the blizzard after it as in my games once the Germans are weakened the Russians steamroller keeps goign and going and going and the game is essentially over.
Matt

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 3
- 3/19/2003 8:11:35 PM   
Tom1939

 

Posts: 789
Joined: 11/23/2000
From: Hungary
Status: offline 		1941. november 30.
Blizzard

The red army attacked at only 3 places of the front, as the germans must be quite fresh as this is only the first week of blizzards. These 3 attacks were massive, including our strongest armored forces. All 3 attacked german infatry korpses held out our attacks but they had some difficulties doing so. Our obsolete armor was destroyed in great number's, but we could not care less as they are crap anyway. They will be replaced by kv's and t34's soon. Blizzard continued, so we will keep pushing against the very stable german defenses.

Losses this week:

Axis/Soviet

489/658
61/422
284/60
120/0

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 4
- 3/20/2003 7:26:00 AM   
PzB


Posts: 5060
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		Yes it'll be interesting to see whether the Germans will be able to contain the Soviet counterattack.

My own experience shows that most of the inf divs will be shattered or severely reduced. The panzer divs' can be pulled back and held in reserve and revive them when the weather improves, but I doubt anything more than a draw can be obtained.

I think that 3-4 months of continous blizzards is a load of bull...
Half of that would be historical. Weather in Russia varied a lot. In the south the weather was much less harsh than in the north.

It's also completely unrealistic that the Red Army would be fit for continous counterattacks on the whole front lasting for more than 4 months. They ran out of steam in january 42.... Tactical and strategical skills were much to low and most of their artillery had been destroyed in the summer of 41.

Guess it all comes down to game limitations: WIR is an old game and the developers have done miracles already. Perhaps we have to live with it as it is and impose our own rules to improve realism and playability.

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 5
- 3/20/2003 3:53:33 PM   
Tom1939

 

Posts: 789
Joined: 11/23/2000
From: Hungary
Status: offline 		Shane has a very strong defence in this game... All of the attacked korpses had 400+ squads and strong artillery showing up for the fight. Right now this is do or die for the soviets. If I don't annihilate his infantry he will finish me off in the summer with his untouched panzers. He already took Lenningrad, and he is close to Moscow.... From the first results I doubt if this blizzard campaign knocks out the germans.

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 6
- 3/21/2003 4:44:38 PM   
Tom1939

 

Posts: 789
Joined: 11/23/2000
From: Hungary
Status: offline 		1941. december 7.

Blizzard

The mass human wave attacks have begun. All but one attack were held by the strong german defence. One of our tank armies in the centre forced the enemy to retreat and now is in good position to test the german 2nd line of defence. In the south our other tank army were only just held (odds:6) by the enemy. The germans know that this fight is for their life and fight like devils. We have huge tank losses, and we count on having only about 1/6th of our current tank forces after this campaign, but they all will be battle hardened KV units. Our infantry losses are high, but we have so many volunteers that not all can be called in so that is no problem right now. German artillery losses are going up nicely.

Losses this week:

935/2104
106/649
640/246
52/0

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 7
- 3/22/2003 6:25:29 PM   
loveman1

 

Posts: 124
Joined: 2/7/2003
Status: offline 		in a game i am playing as russian using wir3.3 and possum v6 it is the first week of blizzards . i suspect that my opponent has entrenched for several weeks prior to blizzards but even in the first week he has lost over 100000 men and at least one of his corp has shattered :eek:

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 8
- 3/24/2003 9:05:54 PM   
Tom1939

 

Posts: 789
Joined: 11/23/2000
From: Hungary
Status: offline 		1941. december 14.
Blizzard

We made some troop transfers this week, and only attacked at 2 places. 1 attack suceeded in the south.

Losses this week:

Axis/Soviet

383/573
53/121
209/69
9/0


p.s: I think this version fixes the blizzard a bit too much. It is ok that high entrenchment german troops will resist like in snow, but with entrenchment down they should get an 50 % penalty... I surely destroyed some enemy entrenchment to 1 with odds of 4,5 for weeks. Still with high readiness they fight like it were summer. I think it makes winning with soviets even harder, as a clever german player can stop in oktober, get high readiness and survive even if the entrenchments go down. It will make 41 a bit harder to win, but in 42 much easier. In all it will be easier to win as german.

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 9
- 3/24/2003 9:40:39 PM   
matt.buttsworth

 

Posts: 797
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Weimar, Germany
Status: offline 		That is scary. I like playing Russian.

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 10
- 3/24/2003 10:32:11 PM   
PzB


Posts: 5060
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		After playing the V3.3 41 campaign my German troops, entrenched or not, shatters like hay in the wind.....
Are we talking about the same game here ? :confused:

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 11
- 3/25/2003 1:20:48 AM   
Tom1939

 

Posts: 789
Joined: 11/23/2000
From: Hungary
Status: offline 		What readiness your troops had? Over 70 means life, under 50 means death. I think this is the rough formula.

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 12
- 3/25/2003 1:25:04 AM   
PzB


Posts: 5060
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		Not really, been using all my bombers to airlift supplies.
HQ's always got 50+ OP's and readiness varies from 40-75%.
Tried to maximise supplies to threatened sectors..but that didn't help either.

As long as you play with house rules and ain't allowed to change HQ's more than once, it's not impossible to boost readiness much higher without reducing OP's to low.

Finnish troops on the northern part of the front are really holding their own against anything the Soviets can throw at them.

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 13
- 3/25/2003 2:02:15 AM   
Tom1939

 

Posts: 789
Joined: 11/23/2000
From: Hungary
Status: offline 		We do not play with house rules, shane can do any special supply he wishes. As I can as well. Without special supply he will be doomed of course, but we use game engine as it is. Next time maybe no special supply:)

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 14
- 3/25/2003 2:05:42 AM   
Tom1939

 

Posts: 789
Joined: 11/23/2000
From: Hungary
Status: offline 		Great quota (?) you have. Be sure that the iraq's pay attention when they are beaten:)

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 15
- 3/26/2003 4:42:11 PM   
Gwynn Compton

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 2/17/2003
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		PzB,

My troops shattered in my game against Popov. Though admittadly I had taken more casualties than usual in the Barbarossa attack, but I lost about 75% of my korps in the winter.

I was quite taken aback by it, never thought the shattering would be that bad.

Gwynn

_____________________________

"History is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace, and revolution continue on forever."

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 16
- 3/26/2003 7:42:21 PM   
Tom1939

 

Posts: 789
Joined: 11/23/2000
From: Hungary
Status: offline 		1941. december 21.
Blizzard

The red army attacked with force again this week. We were held at everywhere again. The only light in the tunnel is that the germans began to use panzers/jagdpanzers to hold the front. This means rising panzer losses. Of course our armor gets beaten badly but we have over 2000 crap tanks in reserve and the germans should be lacking any real panzer resreve.

Losses this week:

Axis/Soviet

1111/2204
248/891!
686/287
70/0

How long can 4-5 german korps take this beating? I think more then half of the german infatry divisions already served in this korpses:) They just get back strength week after week.

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 17
WIR 3.2 Blizzard - 3/27/2003 10:35:48 AM   
MikeB

 

Posts: 215
Joined: 10/30/2002
From: Ottawa Canada
Status: offline 		WIR 3.2 Campaign 41...
I as German...simply retreated...albeit about 15 hexes to avoid the 41 Blizzard bug. My troops have good experience. The downside is summer 42 has been WW-I trench warfare. It didnt help that my enthusiastic flyers were doing attition attacks during the spring. They have now(aug - Sep 42) been doing training to recover.

If the Ruskies advance(ie have no entrenchment), then i can sometimes? attack to force them back. I find that German PZIIIHs lose about 50% of the German tank force attacking Ruskies....while Ruskies lose maybe 20% of their force when attacking good German entrenched youths.

The details of combat losses, recoveries/repairs and allocation of new builds is lacking in this game(among other details). I have come to live with it as the 'fog of war' element. As German, i am disappointed about being on the strategic defensive from Dec 41 onward. Sounds hardly worthwhile playing.

Mike B of Canada...in German Canada vs Russian New Zealand game.(other emails address the details of the game)

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 18
- 3/27/2003 11:13:04 AM   
matt.buttsworth

 

Posts: 797
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Weimar, Germany
Status: offline 		Wir 3.1 Possum 5 blizzard. Germans tried to retreat a long way after fighting up until the onset of blizzard. Russian steamroll attack during blizzard, near Polish/Rumanian border by end of winter. Summer - near North Germany, Hungary. Unlikely the war will last much into 1943.
Not all one sided though.
The Germans got within one square of cutting off Leningrad and many troops before Blizzard. Cut off thrust into Rumanian oil fields in Winter with Panzer thrust to Oddessa. Very nearly 15 Russian armies destroyed. But Russians cut into supporting infantry and encircled and destroyed attacking Panzer korps. Very close though. Rumanian attack saved, but the Panzer attack gave the Russians a chance to throw out the Germans out of Rumania, and dig in and so saved the Ploesti oilfields which are very, very difficult to take in Possum.
So it has been a very interesting game. Shame the Germans could not recover better though.
From the Russian perspective which I prefer, some of the Russian units you can create with mechanized cavalry, tanks and mechanized divisions are awesome.

M
So it it has

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 19
- 3/27/2003 7:21:01 PM   
shane056

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 10/11/2000
From: Western Australia
Status: offline 		G'Day all..
With this game Tamas and I are playing, which is a hybrid possum one, which I must say is unhistorical, with it's massive red air force, red army tank corps and very powerful soviet mechanised cav divs etc, and all of this in 1941, along with low german production, poor luftwaffe etc etc, which are issues I have stated in another thread in this forum, make for a game that cannot be played with a view on historical outcomes.

So after the second blizzard bug fix was implemented, I was determined to test it out to the max, and as Tamas and I have not setup any house rules for this game, I informed Tamas that I am using special supply to the max that I can, based on the fact that the axis forces which had totally stopped and carried no offensive actions or movements for weeks and weeks before the blizzard season began, had gained high entrenchment levels with full supply line values of 6 on all rail lines.

This means that when the blizzard hit, the axis troops were very well entrenched and supplied, with solid and secure lines of supply and communication, plus they were fully stocked up on winter clothing and lubricants etc, with very high morale (ie.. high experience levels).

I had setup the defensive arrangements (ie.. two lines of defense) along with redeployments etc, in the time whilst no offensive operations were taking place, which when combined with the blizzard bug fix, gave me a strong defensive front, and justified me in using special supply as all the right conditions were in place for it.

Readiness drops to about 70% there-abouts between turns, and using special supply I can get back up to say around 85 to 90%.. Doing this every turn enables me to maintain high readiness.. I use about 8 - 9 HQ's for their op points and nothing else.

The other factor is that I have deployed just about every axis fighter, fighter bomber and a number of bomber units to the east, and concentrated them in a small number of HQ's, close enough to one another to offer mutal support, and in the areas of critical importance. My soviet opponent, has helped me out here :) in that he withdrew every single soviet aviation unit to the rear and enabled me to steadly build up the weak luftwaffe to a strong force, as these HQ's in these critical areas have their replacement levels set to a minimum of 90%, plus these unopposed axis air units contribute significantly to the defensive equation, and there are now thousands of them.

So yes, by keeping the readiness values up, combined with the blizzard bug fix, this now enables the axis forces to survive, as long as they are not skeletons through continual combat, plus it also helps to improve the experience levels as well.

The axis high command though, has grave doubts about these absolute monster tank corps, that the soviet player is able to setup and deploy in 1941 of all times :( as they are far more powerful than any panzer korps the wehrmacht could deploy.

It is proving to be an interesting (non-historical) game now, but being on the defensive is wearing the wehrmacht down through attrition losses, and I fear Tamas will eventually pierce all the defensive belts at some location soon, given that there is still at least half a dozen blizzard turns left to go, plus the fact, that he is a very determined commander.

..Shane

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 20
- 3/27/2003 8:30:07 PM   
Tom1939

 

Posts: 789
Joined: 11/23/2000
From: Hungary
Status: offline 		Well I have to say the red air force is not that strong, I was only able to bluff my way to defensive victory in the Moscow area in 41 august and september. We started the game with wir 3.2. and I only lost 3000 planes at the first week. I was near total destruction in august. I used *all* of the red air force to bomb the panzers (with 6:1 losses against me). Luckily only a max of 2 or 3 fighter units were present at one german hq. But I could do major damage to his airfields and panzers in a time of about 4 weeks. He had to stop and I lived another day:) Shane even withdrew his Luftwaffe for quite a long time. But with 6-8 fighters at one hq I don't have a chance (I would never had). So I build up mine air force, and we will see in the summer if it is a mistake to withdraw.

With my 2 tank armies shane is right. I will be able to defeat any panzer korps with them 1:1 if they counterattack. Mech cavalry division is brutal. I always thought that tank korps should have stacking point 2 (smaller unit then panzer division), and mech korps 3. But mech cavalry for 1 might be too good. I will operate with 2 mech korps, 4 mech cav. div and 2 artillery in a tank army....

I do think now that the decisive battles will be in summer 42, I'm not to optimistic about the breakthrough, but I will try:)

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 21
- 3/28/2003 5:26:11 PM   
Tom1939

 

Posts: 789
Joined: 11/23/2000
From: Hungary
Status: offline 		1941. december 28.
Blizzard

The red army launched the strongest attacks since the blizzard started all along the front. The enemy has growing problems, as they beat us back but this is not the easy stuff they had just 2-3 weeks ago. Infantry losses are evening out nicely.

Losses this week:

Axis/Soviet

1181/1438
155/593
707/197
65/0

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 22
- 3/31/2003 3:19:43 PM   
Tom1939

 

Posts: 789
Joined: 11/23/2000
From: Hungary
Status: offline 		1942. january 4.
Blizzard

The new year saw the first soviet succes as near Tula the german defence line was forced to retreat at several places. On other fronts our attacks pounded the german lines, but only some damage was done, no retreats.

Losses this week:

Axis/Soviet

2304/1616
352/613
1206/184
643/1401

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 23
- 3/31/2003 6:51:36 PM   
PzB


Posts: 5060
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		In my 41 campaign as Axis, the blizzards finally stopped in the first week of march! Hopefully for good....

The sit rep is as following:

In the North I'm holding a line 2 hexes west of Vologda and am still in controll of Kalinin, Rhzev and Smolensk. From there it goes south 1 hex west of Kursk and through Kharkov and is hinged on Zaphorozhe.

I think I can - barely - hold this line.
I've been forced back an average of 5 hexes in the north and up to 10 hexes in the south.

Losses have been horrendous, I had a lot of trouble in the south when the Voronezh - Rostov railroad line got cut.

In the north my divisions got mauled due to lack of supplies.
The railroad line from Tikhvin and 8 hexes eastwards got occupied by partisans and if I removed a corps from the line, it was immediately reclaimed as partisan area. This happened 2 times - then I had learned :o
Is this the way it's supposed to be? I got to have a weak div stationed on every single rail hex to keep the line open.

Not sure I'll be able to win this game - but I'll give it a try when the summer arrives.
Losses are approx 40/65k squads 6/13k tanks (Ger - Rus)

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 24
- 4/2/2003 6:27:12 PM   
Tom1939

 

Posts: 789
Joined: 11/23/2000
From: Hungary
Status: offline 		1942. january 11.
Blizzard

The soviet attacks continued the attrition of german forces. No retreats this time. Germans use and lose their panzers in greater and greater numbers.

Losses this week:

Axis/Soviet

1441/2176
430/648
843/310
97/0

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 25
- 4/7/2003 9:13:52 PM   
Tom1939

 

Posts: 789
Joined: 11/23/2000
From: Hungary
Status: offline 		1942. january 18.

The soviet attacks continued, with some succes as the first german infantry korps shattered. German panzer losses remain high.

Losses this week:

Axis/Soviet

1974/1575
467/492
1194/257
111/21

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 26
- 4/7/2003 9:36:24 PM   
PzB


Posts: 5060
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		I found out that my opponent hadn't updated to V3.3...
That's why half the German army shattered. We have now restarted!

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 27
- 4/8/2003 8:33:40 AM   
matt.buttsworth

 

Posts: 797
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Weimar, Germany
Status: offline 		Do people think 3.3 is better? I have kept using 3.1 to avoid the 3.2 blizzard bug but the soviets cannot use air supply in it that is the only bug I know of. On the other hand, given Axis air superirotiy 1941/1942 does that really matter? The Soviet transports would be shot out of the sky anyway! Possum 5 I am very happy with. I have not tried Possum 6.

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 28
Possum AHistorical?????? - 4/9/2003 6:42:26 AM   
Possum

 

Posts: 349
Joined: 3/27/2000
From: Adelaide, SA, Australia
Status: offline 		Shane
I Did About 8 months Reaserch, digging through just about every source I could obtain, To arrive at the Values I used to create the Possum scenario. While I found Many Inconsistancies, Every source that had information relevant indicated that .
1) Yes German Production really was that low.
2) Yes The Soviets Really had that many Tanks and Aircraft avaliable in June 1941
3) Yes Some Soviet Units where Excellent, easilly the equal of the Regular German Army, As they historically demonstrated when the Germans had the misforune to encounter these rare Elite units.
4) There is no difference in the Luftwaffe between the regular Scenario and the Possum scenario, as The regular scenario mannage to get this historically correct.
I Based My scenario Values on Books and Web Sites that I could Verify by Cross Checking with other, independent Books or Websites.
Where Are You drawing you Data From?
Yes I Ignored your First Post as you merly slammed my Scenario, without offering any references or citing specific examples I could go and check.
So Who am I going to Beleive, Several History Textbooks, a coulpe of Wargame that have an excellent reputation for Accuacy, and 20+ Websites that all more or Less agree, or Some Unknown person who Says that they are all wrong, and only he truly Knows what everyone had.

Signed
An Irate Possum

PS I'm Irate as the Whole point of creating the Possum Scenario was to create A MORE realistic 1941 Campaign, not a Fantasy Construct. The fact that it's much better ballanced for PvP is a happy accident.

_____________________________

"We're having a war, and we want you to come!"
So the pig began to whistle and to pound on a drum.
"We'll give you a gun, and we'll give you a hat!"
And the pig began to whistle when they told the piggies that.

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 29
- 4/9/2003 11:57:37 AM   
Tom1939

 

Posts: 789
Joined: 11/23/2000
From: Hungary
Status: offline 		I like your scenario:) Don't be mad at shane as my air supriority in 41 august and september was really unhistorical. But that is not the fault of your scenario, I think he just ignored his air defences for a while and he payed the price. Now he has firm air supriority and, and cares about air defence much more:) Things go far more historic now:)

(in reply to PzB)
Post #: 30
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