Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Do we really need counters in a modern wargame?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [General] >> Slitherine/Matrix Press Event 2016 - The Home of Wargamers >> Slitherine/Matrix Press Event 2015 - The Home of Wargamers >> Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 5/25/2015 3:56:25 PM   
Daniele

 

Posts: 1170
Joined: 2/7/2015
Status: offline
There is a thriving conversation going on the Facebook page about a recent Blog post on the #HoW15 site!

https://www.facebook.com/matrixgamesltd?fref=nf

Be sureto check out also out nice minisite about the event! http://how15.slitherine.com/post3.html
Post #: 1
RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 5/29/2015 1:00:13 AM   
wodin


Posts: 9321
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
Yes.. definitely. If needs be you can forgo the NATO symbol and put a icon instead of the unit type to please those more visually minded..but counters are still a must have. I for one HATE huge 3D Tanks for instance sitting in a 40m hex..or bigger. Now for me that is immersion killing.

_____________________________


(in reply to Daniele)
Post #: 2
RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 5/29/2015 4:13:04 PM   
redmarkus4


Posts: 4301
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniele

There is a thriving conversation going on the Facebook page about a recent Blog post on the #HoW15 site!

https://www.facebook.com/matrixgamesltd?fref=nf

Be sureto check out also out nice minisite about the event! http://how15.slitherine.com/post3.html


I don't think we need counters OR 3D tanks.

Military units were not normally represented by counters during WW2 because a counter doesn't provide the kind of information a senior commander actually requires.

What would be much more useful would be a graphic that can be stretched to cover the desired area (the larger the area, the weaker the coverage) as was and is the case with real combat units.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to Daniele)
Post #: 3
RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 5/29/2015 6:16:38 PM   
wodin


Posts: 9321
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
Redmarkus I still view the circles above as "counters". I don't necessarily think they should only be your standard square. A shape that will change depending on footage would be great. I too have thought about this kind of look for a wargame. Again thinking outside the box. To me it's still a counter representing a unit with unit info displayed on it like type and name. For tacticla games I also like the counter\symbols that are used in the 2D map in the Graviteam games.

< Message edited by wodin -- 5/29/2015 7:18:02 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to redmarkus4)
Post #: 4
RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 5/30/2015 10:31:21 AM   
terry1040

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 10/11/2000
From: The bright side of life
Status: offline
I do like Redmarkus approach.
It kind of defines a rather fresh idea to the subject that has to my knowledge not been realized in wargames so far.
Why not have areas of influence as your playing tools rather individual counters. It would also allow to get rid of the hex maps that many younger players do not like at all. Using Zones not just for graphical representation, but actively interacting with them (and similar installments like Fortifications, minefields etc.) would be an interesting approach for me.
Cheers
Terry

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 5
RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 5/31/2015 1:34:32 AM   
gunnergoz


Posts: 447
Joined: 5/21/2002
From: San Diego CA
Status: offline
Do we need counters? It depends upon what gives you reason for suspension of disbelief so you can enjoy a game through and through. For me NATO counters work because I was raised on them in military manuals and history books. They tell me a lot. And they give me a sense of being in a "command post exercise" where I'm a military commander looking at a map.

Little tanks and army men do it for other people. Perhaps they harken back to happy hours playing with toy soldiers. Gosh knows I have enough of that experience too as a kid. I don't mind them if they are (1) accurate and (2) not cartoon-ish. But some people even like those kinds of graphics if they were raised on Warhammer comics, perhaps.

Once again - #1 rule is Know Thine Audience and intended customer base, and satisfy their needs and preferences. If a game can do both, great. If it can only do one or the other, then optimize the game for that audience in terms of complexity and content.




_____________________________

"Things are getting better!
...Well, maybe not as good as they were yesterday, but much better than they will be tomorrow!"
-Old Russian saying

(in reply to terry1040)
Post #: 6
RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 12/5/2015 10:12:13 PM   
AstaSyneri

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 12/3/2015
Status: offline
Counters are simply an UI method. As others above I love clear-cut counters, but I also appreciate the ability to toggle a style, occasionally (iirc HoI does that).

IMO anybody with any military experience will feel familiar with counters, while those without may feel attracted by other representations of the units involved. Just as gunnergoz said: Know your customer!

(in reply to gunnergoz)
Post #: 7
RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 12/11/2015 3:59:42 PM   
Peter123

 

Posts: 204
Joined: 2/13/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

I don't think we need counters OR 3D tanks.

Military units were not normally represented by counters during WW2 because a counter doesn't provide the kind of information a senior commander actually requires.

What would be much more useful would be a graphic that can be stretched to cover the desired area (the larger the area, the weaker the coverage) as was and is the case with real combat units.





I agree. Text, splines and little more would display units better than counters. Situation and important information like facing, stance, action etc should be apparent at a glance, just like military maps do.
Whenever possible I try to mod graphics to get away from counters:





Attachment (1)

(in reply to redmarkus4)
Post #: 8
RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 12/11/2015 11:24:21 PM   
hellfish6


Posts: 777
Joined: 6/15/2008
Status: offline
^ I've always wanted a game like that. The (in)famous vaporware "Road to Moscow" had a map that looked very much like the map Peter123 posted and I've wanted it ever since.

The nascent Chain of Command game's latest dev video makes me wonder if they're close?



_____________________________


(in reply to Peter123)
Post #: 9
RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 12/12/2015 6:02:25 AM   
zakblood


Posts: 17807
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline
for alpha screens and video it looks and sounds like a big project, good luck with it and will be interested in seeing how it pans out, as the scale and looks does look very good, as soon as it gets to beta and gets filled out with graphic etc i bet it slows down a bit, so maybe a medium to high spec game by the looks of it, but very interesting all the same.

thanks

quote:

Will the tanks have actual armor values? Like if you hit a tank from the side, will it cause more damage than hitting the tank in the front?
Chain of Command is an operational-level wargame, so the combat routines will not take these details into account.


quote:

Is Chain of Command a Wargame or a Real Time Strategy game?
Chain of Command contains features of both Wargames and Real-Time Strategy games. Its Wargaming heritage brings attention to historical detail and overall realism while its real-time mechanics and visual detail are typically found in Real-Time Strategy games.


sorry just lost my interest altogether, real time and arcade by the sounds of it, plus steam means it will be a Gettysburg type game for the mass and not a real war game as such, ah well, already moved on

< Message edited by zakblood -- 12/12/2015 7:08:19 AM >

(in reply to hellfish6)
Post #: 10
RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 12/28/2015 3:16:56 PM   
Crossroads


Posts: 11157
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline
Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? Well that got my attention allright. He*l yes!

Nice mods Peter123 and Hellfish6

Here's a user mod for Campaign Series, by Maus Man. What he's done he's replaced the 3D counters altogether on 3D terrain he's modded. Terrain mod is out, his unit mod at least not yet. But like it very much. As an alternative to my counters, of course


quote:

ORIGINAL: Maus Man

As much as I like the 3d units, they didn't seem to fit with this terrain look. So I tried modding some units to give it the ol' counter look for the 3d view.






_____________________________

Visit us at: Campaign Series Legion
---
CS: Vietnam | CS: East Front 1939-1941 IN-THE-WORKS
CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0 OUT NOW!

(in reply to zakblood)
Post #: 11
RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 12/28/2015 3:37:11 PM   
zakblood


Posts: 17807
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline
i like it, it looks neat and tidy, good colour use as it blends in, but also in a way it sticks out enough to be noticed

(in reply to Crossroads)
Post #: 12
RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 12/28/2015 3:47:54 PM   
Crossroads


Posts: 11157
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline
Yes, not to mention quite innovative how he's taken the 3D unit tiles and put in something completely different!

_____________________________

Visit us at: Campaign Series Legion
---
CS: Vietnam | CS: East Front 1939-1941 IN-THE-WORKS
CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0 OUT NOW!

(in reply to zakblood)
Post #: 13
RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 2/7/2016 4:54:42 PM   
andrea23

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 7/23/2015
Status: offline
Nice mods

(in reply to Crossroads)
Post #: 14
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [General] >> Slitherine/Matrix Press Event 2016 - The Home of Wargamers >> Slitherine/Matrix Press Event 2015 - The Home of Wargamers >> Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.117