Pelton (GHC) vs chaos45 T-131 Russian Victory

[Peltonx]

1941 GC Sudden Death 1.08.03

Server game
Locked HQ Support
Full FOW

House Rules:
No Para drops at all.
No bombing of air bases more than 3 times a turn (after turn 1)
No bombing of HQ's unless stacked with a ground unit
No naval invasions before November 1941, none outside the 1939 Soviet borders before January 1943
In addition if Sevastopol is either isolated, or in German hands, none west of the Crimea,
which reflects the scope for air/naval interdiction not really reflected in the game.

Additional Auto VC:
If the Axis player holds
Leningrad, Moscow, Voronezh and Rostov concurrently at any time in 1941 he wins
an Auto Victory. No need to waste any ones time as we all know the end results based on past games if these cities fall in 1941.

Optional Rules Setup:

Mild Blizzard Rules
Random Weather
No 1-1 = 2-1

Good luck.

[chaos45]

Turn 2 away got a small morale victory with a couple hexes changes that should slow some movement.

[chaos45]

Turn 3 away 12th Panzer and 3 support battalion off to the Gulags [8D]

I will say Im very hard pressed to keep the industry in the south but Im making him work for it I think.

[lowtech]

Well from our game I can confirm you're a devious little stalinist so-and-so [:D]

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Turn 3 away 12th Panzer and 3 support battalion off to the Gulags [8D]

I will say Im very hard pressed to keep the industry in the south but Im making him work for it I think.

I take chances on my opening in center. Someone finally got me.

Your more then welcome to post pictures ect.

I generally stay 5 turns back, so once you send me turn 7 I will post turn 2 ect

[chaos45]

Ya it looks like you try to lock down the industry and it makes it a gamble, I have some ideas on what your up to just scrounging up the troops to do something about it is the problem lol.

No problem the crossing was abit of a surprise this turn my bad though should have screened it better, didnt realize it was quite so easy to cross. Real life it was a major obstacle so getting across and 100 miles into my lines was a wake up [:(]

Absolutely feeling the pressure of your advance though, isnt a spare Soviet unit anywhere really as far as im concerned that massive Lvov pocket is really hard to recover from in the south as it doesnt leave you with much to screen off the industry for the early game at all.

[Peltonx]

My over all plan is:

1. industry destruction
2. pocket Red Army
3. Strategic positions for summer 1942
4. truck destruction

The fact of the matter is Germany can only take what we are given.

Russian player can take away 1. random weather helps allot or can. I never had a random weather game that did not have a mud turn in south by turn 5 and a 2nd mud turn in center t-6-10 and then northern 11-15
so basicly in every random weather game bad luck for me good for Russian side. This ruled out 1.

When mud hit early this generally means that railheads are closer to front as I cant rush turns 1-4+
This in turn means I can pocket units easyer then if I am rushing.

1 and 2 are options based on weather or great Russian game play.

3 is really the most important things for 1941, because I can still win in 42 dispite not being able to do 1/2

Then 4 is something I work on from turn 1 1941 into 43, this can be key to Germany get a minor win or draw.

As far as what I am tring to do summer 1941 is simply taking what I am given, you defend the bend I cross the river.

Russia can be very strong in areas but not all across the front, I simply go to the areas of least resistance unless I am sitting in a railhead.

[chaos45]

ehh we havent had any mud yet unless it just hit this turn. A mud turn would make factory evac alot better. At this point Im kinda just picking what I figure Im going to lose and trying not to fall under the levels of the 1942 game start.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

ehh we havent had any mud yet unless it just hit this turn. A mud turn would make factory evac alot better. At this point Im kinda just picking what I figure Im going to lose and trying not to fall under the levels of the 1942 game start.

Just saying I appear to be lucky for the first time.

[chaos45]

Ya IDK what I was thinking, thought I had a unit in Vitebsk or whatever its called but I saw you took it without a fight...must have just had an HQ there and thought I had ground troops gave you a break there due to my oversight.

Looks like your about 2 months ahead of historical advance rates in the South.

Also looks like Smolensk will fall much earlier than historical as well.

[Peltonx]

Mud turn 6 central zone which covers 100% of my panzers, General Mud saves your butt for a turn. I am out of the south so now you need a mud turn 10+.


One good thing is you ran at the land bridge and gave me allot of terrain.

Not really ahead of anything at this point.

turns 1-6 is push now its all about pocketing units.

[chaos45]

ya I saw you building up for the push south from Pskov and only left a delaying force to buy time. Lost 1 division that was good but couldnt risk sticking around with the river breached. Not manning the city didnt help me out either [:)]

Win or lose curious how this plays out, having fun as your stressing my defensive skills very heavily, played alot of counter based Eastern front games over the years and that push in the south is just.......most games Ive played over the years German logistics couldnt support that without a bridge over the Dnepr.

As to time....look at the dates of the battle of smolensk and Kharkov you are at the gates of both at the end of July...August/September was historical battle for smolensk and October the Battle for Kharkov. Key thing with you being so ahead of historical timelines is historical reinforcement schedule.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

ya I saw you building up for the push south from Pskov and only left a delaying force to buy time. Lost 1 division that was good but couldnt risk sticking around with the river breached. Not manning the city didnt help me out either [:)]

Win or lose curious how this plays out, having fun as your stressing my defensive skills very heavily, played alot of counter based Eastern front games over the years and that push in the south is just.......most games Ive played over the years German logistics couldnt support that without a bridge over the Dnepr.

As to time....look at the dates of the battle of smolensk and Kharkov you are at the gates of both at the end of July...August/September was historical battle for smolensk and October the Battle for Kharkov. Key thing with you being so ahead of historical timelines is historical reinforcement schedule.

Biggest tank battle in history was not Kursk, was in June 41 Southern front and the big Z lost.

Logistics was never an issue in the south as Romania is only a few 100 miles from Keiv. The issue was force, WitE gives people options and one is sending 6 more panzer divisons to the south.

Turns 1-6 is really a dance, like a fight. I am doing recon to see what kind of player you are. I basicly seen it all by now.

Now that I know what I am up against I can start the fight. My opening is always the same, it is the reaction to it that tells me what I am up against. Weather adds another twist to the game, but the reaction and peoples moves to what I do is in every AAR.

You seem to be a good player so far but the rubber meets the road turns 12-17, we are at turn 6.

[lowtech]

Logistics was never an issue in the south as Romania is only a few 100 miles from Keiv. The issue was force, WitE gives people options and one is sending 6 more panzer divisons to the south.

Historically, logistics in the south was a huge problem. The Rail Net in Romania, to use the technical termed, sucked. Politically any additional German forces in Romania prior to the war was a non-starter. I'd add that the Soviets also had enormous logistics problems, just not in the south in the first weeks (relatively speaking). So the logistics model and application in WitE is very ahistorical. But, as you and everybody else notes, no Soviet player is going to wantonly throw away somewhere on the order of 750K troops in the ridiculous deployments that Stalin mandated in the first 3-4 months of the war. Do these balance out? It seems, if both players understand the system, sorta.... maybe?

My personal belief is that, the combined errors in WitE, combined with decent play, actually do kick out pretty historical results insofar that the Axis had to run a near perfect initial campaign in 41, and that if both sides had played more conservatively, the war would have settled into a brutal attritional grind sometime in late 42 to early 43 with the Soviets slowly gaining the upper hand.

I would be EXTREMELY interested in a Pelton Soviet versus a similar style Axis game. I thing you, Pelton, would be able to comment on the Soviets in a very useful manner.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: lowtech

Logistics was never an issue in the south as Romania is only a few 100 miles from Keiv. The issue was force, WitE gives people options and one is sending 6 more panzer divisons to the south.

Historically, logistics in the south was a huge problem. The Rail Net in Romania, to use the technical termed, sucked. Politically any additional German forces in Romania prior to the war was a non-starter. I'd add that the Soviets also had enormous logistics problems, just not in the south in the first weeks (relatively speaking). So the logistics model and application in WitE is very ahistorical. But, as you and everybody else notes, no Soviet player is going to wantonly throw away somewhere on the order of 750K troops in the ridiculous deployments that Stalin mandated in the first 3-4 months of the war. Do these balance out? It seems, if both players understand the system, sorta.... maybe?

My personal belief is that, the combined errors in WitE, combined with decent play, actually do kick out pretty historical results insofar that the Axis had to run a near perfect initial campaign in 41, and that if both sides had played more conservatively, the war would have settled into a brutal attritional grind sometime in late 42 to early 43 with the Soviets slowly gaining the upper hand.

I would be EXTREMELY interested in a Pelton Soviet versus a similar style Axis game. I thing you, Pelton, would be able to comment on the Soviets in a very useful manner.

Generally speaking Germany is forced to start defending early 43, I had to vs smokendave in our current game, so game models the tide of war right. Advances are past historical for me generally, but .04/.05 will pull that back some for a few people and allot for others.


I played vs smokendave I had a solid wall late 42, lost Leningrad, held Moscow, Stalingrad and was a little south of Rostov. We stopped early 43 as 1.06 simply was not playable past 43.

[chaos45]

Game is up to Turn 9 now looks like a big push on Moscow is coming and very heavy fighting to just the SW of leningrad. South has been pretty well stagnant for 2-3 turns now as by holding the Bridges on the Dnpr it seems eventually the lead panzer units ran low on fuel/ammo. Didnt seem to have a massive effect on supply but over several turns did seem to slowly have an effect. Ive been slowly giving ground in the south as I get the factories out and he has mainly just been advancing to take what is given. The spearhead towards Kharkov hasnt moved forward and I still have a heavy Zoc zone defense around to block movement on Kharkov or stalino.

[Peltonx]

Turn 4 GHC Armaments: 92,000 Manpower: 26,000 VP: 162

HQBUs used: 1 AGN/ 0 AGC/ 0 AGS
Armament Pts. Destroyed = 8
Heavy Industry Destroyed = 4
Factories:
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed after November 1st 1941
Corp:
Divisions:
Brigades:
SU:
AP total:
Stavka KIA: 867,000 Stavka OOB: 4,010,000
AGN

[Peltonx]

AGC

[Peltonx]

AGS

[Peltonx]

Turn 5 GHC Armaments: 92,000 Manpower: 26,000 VP: 162

HQBUs used: 1 AGN/ 0 AGC/ 0 AGS
Armament Pts. Destroyed = 8
Heavy Industry Destroyed = 4
Factories:
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed after November 1st 1941
Corp:
Divisions:
Brigades:
SU:
AP total:
Stavka KIA: 953,000 Stavka OOB: 4,380,000
AGN