The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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mktours
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The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by mktours »

I just checked the old save files of my game against Maquo in the 1.08.03 patch. In the attached picture, T6, the blue circled hex (which I did a HQ build up) is 20 mp from Rail head, the red circled hex is 25 hexes from Rail head. I have waited 3 turns for the railhead to advance so I could make a HQ build up at the blue circled hex in T6 (in the new patch I would be able to do HQ at the same hex in T4, if so I would do it and would get much advantage in T4). Suppose I could do a HQ build up in the red circled hex instead of the blue one in T6? It is no hard to see that it would make huge difference! It takes 3 turns ahead regarding time, and huge jump ahead regarding space.

Germany would take Moscow in history if they could make such fancy HQ build up at the gate of Moscow.
In my game against Saper222, one major strategy of my play was trying to exhaust the fuel of his Pz head, with the HQ build up being allowed to make at 25 hexes from rail head, such tactic of SHC is completely useless. That is unfair to the soviet side, and extremely against history.

Also one can imagine that axis player would be able to make a break through, get his Pz HQs driving into the newly conquered land and make HQ build up there as long as it has 20% mp left, then the Pz corps would go on to advance 50 mp next turn, encircled whatever it like to. So it needs to return to the old rule that the HQ should no move at all if it wants to do a HQ build up that turn. It makes sense as a HQ build should consume a whole week to administer. 20% of mp is less than 2 days.

Note I speak from the point of view of a Axis player, I just played the soviet side, and now I want to play the German side. German side doesn’t need such a big favor.


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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

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morvael
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by morvael »

HQBU will be nerfed in 1.08.04, and even general supply too (a bit). Penalty reduction will not be constant and the higher the worse your supply modifiers, but reduction will be up to 20% of supply modifiers at 100% buildup. And it will not give bonus to failed leader rolls impact on MP. Supply will start to degrade when over 20 MP from railhead, not 25 MP. That should be enough.
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morvael
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by morvael »

And the range from railhead for doing HQBU drops from 25/100 to 20/80.
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by mktours »

Morvael,
Thanks for your reply, I like most of the new features you make, which makes the game much better. But I don't understand why making the HQ build up so complicated? I think the old rules is simple and easy to understand, the new rules of HQ build up really confuse me. In such a mega-game, the sub-rules the simpler, the better.
20hex/80mp is still too much, 20 mp is a fair range. It works for so long and nobody contested it.
ORIGINAL: morvael

HQBU will be nerfed in 1.08.04, and even general supply too (a bit). Penalty reduction will not be constant and the higher the worse your supply modifiers, but reduction will be up to 20% of supply modifiers at 100% buildup. And it will not give bonus to failed leader rolls impact on MP. Supply will start to degrade when over 20 MP from railhead, not 25 MP. That should be enough.
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morvael
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by morvael »

Previous HQBU was totally unrealistic, it gave 200% of everything teleported from Berlin, and gave a lot of MP (at the virtual requirement of moving units and unmoving HQ). I wanted to tie HQBU to normal supply system, and the point of entry was "if normal supply works up to 25/100, then HQBU should work in the same range, and simply be reduced in effectiveness as the range increases". But the penalties were reduced too much, in .04 they will be correctly reduced. I didn't want to create separate ranges or unmoving requirement for HQBU because they are hard to track, not really user friendly. I want everything to scale properly with range and spent MP and be part of regular supply system. It's just a matter of tweaking it to work correctly. I think the bottom limit will be half of the normal supply range.
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: morvael

Previous HQBU was totally unrealistic, it gave 200% of everything teleported from Berlin, and gave a lot of MP (at the virtual requirement of moving units and unmoving HQ). I wanted to tie HQBU to normal supply system, and the point of entry was "if normal supply works up to 25/100, then HQBU should work in the same range, and simply be reduced in effectiveness as the range increases". But the penalties were reduced too much, in .04 they will be correctly reduced. I didn't want to create separate ranges or unmoving requirement for HQBU because they are hard to track, not really user friendly. I want everything to scale properly with range and spent MP and be part of regular supply system. It's just a matter of tweaking it to work correctly. I think the bottom limit will be half of the normal supply range.
Morvael,
Personally I am still thinking that 20 mp is a fair range and the HQ should not move that turn.
But I am just one player, and I don’t know about others’ opinions, there were some people who having said that they don’t like the new rules, but maybe most people simply don’t care, or they do like the new rules. That is not what I can judge. If most people do like the new rules, I could just retreat to making House rules in my own games when I play GHC.
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morvael
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by morvael »

The idea is not to arbitrarily block HQBU, but make it near-useless when applied to units that have moved a lot and/or are far away from the supply source, resulting in spending of trucks and APs for little gain. At the same time players may have different "sweet spots" at which they decide a HQBU is worth it or not. For some it may be 20MP and unmoved units, resulting in 100% supply efficiency and units supplied to 200% at minimal AP cost. Some will be happy to have the HQBU bump their supply efficiency from 40 to 44% and for their units reach 65% supplies instead of 50% and pay more AP due to range. That will give a few MP more and may be helpful, but obviously the gain will be little compared to expense. The problem was only properly reducing the effect of HQBU with range and spent MP, but I think it will be OK in 1.08.04 and house rules will not be necessary.
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: morvael

The idea is not to arbitrarily block HQBU, but make it near-useless when applied to units that have moved a lot and/or are far away from the supply source, resulting in spending of trucks and APs for little gain. At the same time players may have different "sweet spots" at which they decide a HQBU is worth it or not. For some it may be 20MP and unmoved units, resulting in 100% supply efficiency and units supplied to 200% at minimal AP cost. Some will be happy to have the HQBU bump their supply efficiency from 40 to 44% and for their units reach 65% supplies instead of 50% and pay more AP due to range. That will give a few MP more and may be helpful, but obviously the gain will be little compared to expense. The problem was only properly reducing the effect of HQBU with range and spent MP, but I think it will be OK in 1.08.04 and house rules will not be necessary.
Ok, Let us expect the 1.08.04 patch, :)
When will it be release?
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morvael
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by morvael »

Hard to tell, the work on fixing all scenarios is taxing, but the .exe itself is really feature complete.
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: mktours

ORIGINAL: morvael

Previous HQBU was totally unrealistic, it gave 200% of everything teleported from Berlin, and gave a lot of MP (at the virtual requirement of moving units and unmoving HQ). I wanted to tie HQBU to normal supply system, and the point of entry was "if normal supply works up to 25/100, then HQBU should work in the same range, and simply be reduced in effectiveness as the range increases". But the penalties were reduced too much, in .04 they will be correctly reduced. I didn't want to create separate ranges or unmoving requirement for HQBU because they are hard to track, not really user friendly. I want everything to scale properly with range and spent MP and be part of regular supply system. It's just a matter of tweaking it to work correctly. I think the bottom limit will be half of the normal supply range.
Morvael,
Personally I am still thinking that 20 mp is a fair range and the HQ should not move that turn.
But I am just one player, and I don’t know about others’ opinions, there were some people who having said that they don’t like the new rules, but maybe most people simply don’t care, or they do like the new rules. That is not what I can judge. If most people do like the new rules, I could just retreat to making House rules in my own games when I play GHC.

As with everything WitE a tweak can kill the game as 1.06 did.
If your tracking the general population here its coming slowly back to life.

After 1.06 it was had to get a game vs someone on forums or putting it on the server. It took weeks to get one.

But now after 1.08 I put one on server it is taken in 24 hrs.

I do agree with u that its to easy and needed to be tweak back, which morveal is doing.
Hes done fixes I have not agreed with, but over time and testing he has been right and I have been wrong almost every time unlike 2by3.


20 MPs and less supplys is a big tweak because that effects every single turn over time = less advance, less pocketed Russians, more forts ( fort building faster for Russians .04) more Russians ect ect.

We don't want to go back to Russians being on the offensive in 42 summer, walls of steel from Pskov to land bridge T-7 ect ect which was completely unhistorical.

So you don't think morveal is nerfing it enough?

The only thing more u want is HQ can not move for a turn?
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: Pelton



The only thing more u want is HQ can not move for a turn?
Pelton, Thanks for your reply.
I think that the GHC would be able to make HQ build up at 25 hexes when its Pzs are exhausted in fuel is what I am concerned about. There are certain timing when both the GHC and SHC are exhausting, GHC being short of fuel, SHC being short of troops and not space to further trade for retreating, then if GHC got the fuel to its Pz head, it could encircle the RED ARMY, which have not space to further trade at that time.
But I haven't test the new patch yet, so I am not a good judge of it.
The HQ need to be stay unmoved because I think that a HQ build up require a whole week to administer, also if it could be allowed to move,then it might be exploited to make other advantages.
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: morvael

Hard to tell, the work on fixing all scenarios is taxing, but the .exe itself is really feature complete.
Will be looking forward to that patch.
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by Peltonx »

Currently once a HQBU is done u can not move.

Personally I don't do 1/2 as many HQBUs as I use to, I don't chain them any more as the nerfs have made it not worth while, I did to many vs smokendave and had a truck shortage in late 42.

I don't start doing them until T-8 or so.

I generally pull panzers off line don't move HQ much and do a HQBU so I get full benefit.

I would be fine with not moving HQ's or I think a better middle ground would be HQ must have at least 30 to 35 MP's left to do a HQBU.
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Currently once a HQBU is done u can not move.

Personally I don't do 1/2 as many HQBUs as I use to, I don't chain them any more as the nerfs have made it not worth while, I did to many vs smokendave and had a truck shortage in late 42.

I don't start doing them until T-8 or so.

I generally pull panzers off line don't move HQ much and do a HQBU so I get full benefit.

I would be fine with not moving HQ's or I think a better middle ground would be HQ must have at least 30 to 35 MP's left to do a HQBU.
I knew that once the HQ built up, it could not move. I am saying that it must stay unmoved the whole turn.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
I haven't play the game after it advance to 1.08 (as I am still waiting the updated Manual), so you should be a much better judge of it then me.
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: mktours

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Currently once a HQBU is done u can not move.

Personally I don't do 1/2 as many HQBUs as I use to, I don't chain them any more as the nerfs have made it not worth while, I did to many vs smokendave and had a truck shortage in late 42.

I don't start doing them until T-8 or so.

I generally pull panzers off line don't move HQ much and do a HQBU so I get full benefit.

I would be fine with not moving HQ's or I think a better middle ground would be HQ must have at least 30 to 35 MP's left to do a HQBU.
I knew that once the HQ built up, it could not move. I am saying that it must stay unmoved the whole turn.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
I haven't play the game after it advance to 1.08 (as I am still waiting the updated Manual), so you should be a much better judge of it then me.

I could live with it not moving, but I think that's not completely historical.

I think its should be able to move some 10-15 MP's, but I thk that's what morveal is factoring in with his small nerf to supplies ect.

Really if you want full effect of HQBU its best to have 30+ MP's in the panzer divisions, be less then 25 MP's from railhead and then do HQBU under the current ruleset.
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by Eambar »

ORIGINAL: morvael

...and even general supply too (a bit)...Supply will start to degrade when over 20 MP from railhead, not 25 MP. That should be enough.

Do I read this right that general supply will come back to 20 MP from railhead or is the 20MP just referring to HQ Buildup?

Cheers,
mktours
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: Pelton


I could live with it not moving, but I think that's not completely historical.

I think its should be able to move some 10-15 MP's, but I thk that's what morveal is factoring in with his small nerf to supplies ect.

Really if you want full effect of HQBU its best to have 30+ MP's in the panzer divisions, be less then 25 MP's from railhead and then do HQBU under the current ruleset.
I am still quite confusing about the current HQ build up rules, it looks like quite complicated (a good Manual is much needed).
Your experiences would be helpful to me when I do more check of it.
To get a big pile of cargo to a certain position require a lot of administration work and busy transport, one week is not even enough, I think, if the HQ move, then a big Chaos would be.
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RE: The HQ build up needs to return to 20MP rule and HQ must not move

Post by morvael »

ORIGINAL: Doggie3

ORIGINAL: morvael

...and even general supply too (a bit)...Supply will start to degrade when over 20 MP from railhead, not 25 MP. That should be enough.

Do I read this right that general supply will come back to 20 MP from railhead or is the 20MP just referring to HQ Buildup?

Cheers,

General supply max range is 25/100 as before. But the efficiency started to drop from 100% after 10/25. Now it will be after 10/20. So yes it's about general supply, but not reducing it's current general range, only increasing penalty above 20 MP from railhead.
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