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European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System???

 
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European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/23/2015 11:57:49 PM   
claystone_MatrixForum

 

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I love the way the system is done and how the look of the game is for WITP and i was wondering if there is a "Mod" that has the map of Europe for this game so i can keep the same system to play?

I know there is "War in the East/West" game out there which i own, but i prefer to play this type of system in a european campaign. I'm not really a big Pacfic War campaign type of guy. I like playing as the Germans taking over Europe or Russia.

To any Mod creater, I would be willing to pay for it to be done, and i will pay well if it would work and play well. And to the developers of this game, would you consider making another game but with the European campaign?

Thanks

< Message edited by claystone -- 4/24/2015 12:59:05 AM >
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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/24/2015 12:42:32 AM   
fodder


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There is one europe mod, you will find it here.

http://tanciky.cz/uv/witw_english/index.php

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/24/2015 3:04:11 AM   
claystone_MatrixForum

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fodder

There is one europe mod, you will find it here.

http://tanciky.cz/uv/witw_english/index.php



Has anyone played this Mod? Does it work?


< Message edited by claystone -- 4/24/2015 4:04:25 AM >

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/24/2015 5:52:32 AM   
obvert


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Wow. Never knew about this. I'm downloading and will at least have a look at the map if it opens.

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/24/2015 6:10:04 AM   
LoBaron


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First, just to be clear: I do not want to belittle Dalis work here. It is sensational, and the effort put into the project and love for details is astonishing. And it covers the air and naval part of the ETO with pretty high accuracy.

That said, the weakest part of WitPAE has always been the land combat model. It was built for islands and atolls.

This is most evident when observing the China part of the game. The ammount of abstraction present on units, supply model (abstraction, consumption and tracing), combat model, and movement model, make accurately simulating the historical China TOO next to impossible. This is enhanced by 20/20 players´ hindsight making the task even more difficult.

The complexity and variety of ETO land combat, combined with the large landmasses produces an environment impossible to accurately model in WitPAE. There are many better engines for such an undertaking.

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/24/2015 7:48:04 AM   
MrBlizzard


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The 40 miles hex seems to me too small for the european teather, you would lose a lot of detail and units would be massed.
I guess it would be unplayable.
why do you prefer witp model for Europe instead than witw ?

I believe the mod linked above was for witp not for witp-ae

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/24/2015 9:58:34 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

The 40 miles hex seems to me too small for the european teather, you would lose a lot of detail and units would be massed.
I guess it would be unplayable.
why do you prefer witp model for Europe instead than witw ?

I believe the mod linked above was for witp not for witp-ae


From the page here it's AE based.

I for one would be curious as I know how to play AE and I find WITW both daunting to learn and less interesting as a model. Week long turns. Only a small portion of the war once the Allies already have dominance. Almost no naval component at all. The air system seems to have some advantages but also some drawbacks and is much more abstract.

It probably has no stacking limits, but this might make it more playable on land. Maybe not, but is there a really good option that includes great naval, air and land systems from 40-45? Let me know if you have found one.




Attachment (1)

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/24/2015 1:29:19 PM   
MrBlizzard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

The 40 miles hex seems to me too small for the european teather, you would lose a lot of detail and units would be massed.
I guess it would be unplayable.
why do you prefer witp model for Europe instead than witw ?

I believe the mod linked above was for witp not for witp-ae


From the page here it's AE based.

I for one would be curious as I know how to play AE and I find WITW both daunting to learn and less interesting as a model. Week long turns. Only a small portion of the war once the Allies already have dominance. Almost no naval component at all. The air system seems to have some advantages but also some drawbacks and is much more abstract.

It probably has no stacking limits, but this might make it more playable on land. Maybe not, but is there a really good option that includes great naval, air and land systems from 40-45? Let me know if you have found one.




Yes you're right.
I love the detail of WITW map, we started to make a mod for Mediterranean convoys war and operation husky; based from witp-ae engine; but we had to give up 'cause of the wrong scale.
Ships could make Sicily to Tunisia in just one turn phase, so they would never be outside CAP. Italy would be large only 2-3 hex, so massed troops in few hexes, similar problems in the libian desert.
Indeed I love witp-ae model :)




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 4/24/2015 2:36:00 PM >


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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/24/2015 1:29:46 PM   
claystone_MatrixForum

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard


why do you prefer witp model for Europe instead than witw ?




I have both games "War in the East and also War in the West". I prefer WITPAE system, graphics, charts, UI, etc. I like when i move land units that it takes time to get there. I just like the whole look and play of this game also better.

I put in the "Mod Section" of this forum that im looking to pay someone to put together a "Mod" of The Battle for Normandy the entire map, or Barbarossa entire map.




< Message edited by claystone -- 4/24/2015 2:30:18 PM >

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/24/2015 3:25:52 PM   
oaltinyay


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Errr.. where is Cyprus ? Shouldnt it be in the map ?

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/24/2015 4:27:29 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay


Errr.. where is Cyprus ? Shouldnt it be in the map ?


You have to look really close!

9 hexes from Amsterdam to Switzerland....

I wonder if you could mod it to be more like the old Avalon Hill classic War at Sea, what a great game...and fast playing too!

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 4/24/2015 5:37:46 PM >

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/24/2015 5:41:51 PM   
MrBlizzard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay


Errr.. where is Cyprus ? Shouldnt it be in the map ?


You have to look really close!

9 hexes from Amsterdam to Switzerland....

I wonder if you could mod it to be more like the old Avalon Hill classic War at Sea, what a great game...and fast playing too!

Just a mega battle all together

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/24/2015 10:07:18 PM   
oaltinyay


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can it be possible to mod galley warfare into this map ?


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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/24/2015 10:35:00 PM   
claystone_MatrixForum

 

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Well here is what i wrote in the other Thread under Mods I still havent found any takers who i would pay to have this Mod made.


"Willing to commission someone to put together a European Campaign Mode. Since i love wargame boardgames i was thinking about either:

1. Case Blue Mod (Resourse by "Multi game publishing"...you can see their map to use for Mod)
https://boardgamegeek.com/images/boardgame/29285/case-blue

or

2. Battle for Normandy Mod (Resourse by "GMT Games"...you can see their map to use for Mod)
https://boardgamegeek.com/images/boardgame/32838/battle-normandy/page/2


These are boardgames wargame i mentin above to help with the mod. Like i said i would pay for a working mod to be created. Please PM if interested."


< Message edited by claystone -- 4/24/2015 11:35:35 PM >

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/25/2015 4:08:53 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Well you could always check out the World in Flames forum to see what an effort that has been for one person to get that game where it is now. 10+ years. So unless you are willing to actually pay salaries for 2-3 people to program this for you, you are never going to see this developed. Even if you were willing to $100 for it. Just not that many people in the pool that would be interested.

And if you were willing to actually pay people to program for you, WitP II would be a much better use of your dollars. Just saying

I was the Board Chair of a local non-profit and I constantly had people coming up with ideas and suggestions to improve things. Some of them really good ones too. But as soon as I asked them to lead the effort, i.e. raise funds, write the proposals, etc. they immediately said 'Oh no. I can't do that, I wanted you to do the work.' Needless to say our plates were full of the things we HAD to get done and could not afford to divert efforts into these areas, regardless of how good they were.

These types of suggests that appear on this (and other forums) remind me of the above. I too would love a lot of mods/changes to WitP (plus a lot of other games too). But until someone a) is willing to completely fund the development and b) get permission from the hodpoge of people that have a piece of WitP none of this is going to happen. Plus if disagreements break out we could easily end up like Steel Panthers did. Two separate games with the same name that have two different code bases now. One sold by Matrix and one sold by Shrapnel Games. BTW a fascinating history behind Steel Panthers if anyone is interested.

If that happened to WitP which one would you play?

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/25/2015 4:31:51 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay

can it be possible to mod galley warfare into this map ?




Wooden ships and iron men? Too, please.

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/25/2015 4:43:26 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Pax Romana (GMT Games)

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/25/2015 5:03:28 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: claystone
Well here is what i wrote in the other Thread under Mods I still havent found any takers who i would pay to have this Mod made.

Obviously can’t play with the game executable. That belongs to Matrix/2 By 3/Henderson Field. Copyright laws are very restrictive. It must be strictly a scenario based on the game engine – absolutely no possibility for changes.

And what are you paying for? A schlock scen file, or something useful? And if you want a professional scenario, how much will you interfere with what the people do? Ok, so map work, OOB definitions, TOE research, planes, ships, art for the foregoing; maybe 3 people, 2-3 months. 350-500 hours (roughly 1063 man-hours). That’s roughly $26,500 on a $25.00 per hour scale.

Will require a written contract, based on a mutually agreed upon Statement of Work. Change Orders will be a cost adder, with costs stated up front. If not agreed upon, they won’t happen. It will not include AI work. Alternative Dispute Resolution is mandatory and the American Arbitration Association will be specified in the contract.

$8,000 up front with $8,000 monthly progress payments. The residual due upon acceptance. You like, then send PM. I do not respond to gmail, yahoo, or other anonymous nonsense, so please include an official ISP email address.

[ed] Boy, that opened the overcoat about what we did for opportunity costs working the title; although most of us were way beyond the $25.00 per hour scale. And then some of us got old and retired and went further and continue to support the title. Hey !!! ... Who loves ya Baby ??!!!

< Message edited by Symon -- 4/25/2015 6:10:50 PM >


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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/25/2015 5:46:20 PM   
AW1Steve


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OK. I'm not a game creator , lawyer , financier or entrepreneur. But in this age of kickstarting and crowd funding , why would it not be possible for a group of like minded indivuals to find a spokesman to offer to matrix or Henderson field, 1) this is what we want. 2) How much do you want? 3) what do we need for a starting dollar amount to build a semi-custom game , or modify an exisiting one? Then set up a "fund" and start building. Good lord they even "building" a Star Trek movie (1st rate , prime theatre quality) in this matter. If you can fund a major motion picture in this manner , I'd imagine you could fund a game pretty easy. The companies exist , the game structure exists, the experienced people exist. Tell the initial funders they get the 1st copies of the game , and that's basically all they want. Tell me , how much would you pay for say....WITP 2? My mouth is salivating and my hand reaching towards my wallet at the very thought.



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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/25/2015 6:02:10 PM   
Symon


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PM sent.

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/25/2015 7:29:07 PM   
claystone_MatrixForum

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

quote:

ORIGINAL: claystone
Well here is what i wrote in the other Thread under Mods I still havent found any takers who i would pay to have this Mod made.

Obviously can’t play with the game executable. That belongs to Matrix/2 By 3/Henderson Field. Copyright laws are very restrictive. It must be strictly a scenario based on the game engine – absolutely no possibility for changes.

And what are you paying for? A schlock scen file, or something useful? And if you want a professional scenario, how much will you interfere with what the people do? Ok, so map work, OOB definitions, TOE research, planes, ships, art for the foregoing; maybe 3 people, 2-3 months. 350-500 hours (roughly 1063 man-hours). That’s roughly $26,500 on a $25.00 per hour scale.

Will require a written contract, based on a mutually agreed upon Statement of Work. Change Orders will be a cost adder, with costs stated up front. If not agreed upon, they won’t happen. It will not include AI work. Alternative Dispute Resolution is mandatory and the American Arbitration Association will be specified in the contract.

$8,000 up front with $8,000 monthly progress payments. The residual due upon acceptance. You like, then send PM. I do not respond to gmail, yahoo, or other anonymous nonsense, so please include an official ISP email address.

[ed] Boy, that opened the overcoat about what we did for opportunity costs working the title; although most of us were way beyond the $25.00 per hour scale. And then some of us got old and retired and went further and continue to support the title. Hey !!! ... Who loves ya Baby ??!!!



I understand totally of how it would work, and yes for that kind of money, where i thought it would be around, i would make it my game to sell as well as playing it for myself. I have the funds to cover this cost with no problem and yes a contract and operating argreement would be drawn up to make it happen.

But first their work must be shown that they can perform and do this type of work. and also is anyone out there able willing to take it on.



< Message edited by claystone -- 4/25/2015 8:31:42 PM >

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/25/2015 7:33:03 PM   
claystone_MatrixForum

 

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Symon...i did not receive your PM...


And if the developers of Witpae would like me to help fund WITE II, they can PM me right now i'll be ready to listen.


Listen, I'm just a Real Estate Developer out here in NYC that loves playing these games. I have no problem throwing my hat in the ring to help make a great game like WITPAE but in a European theater instead.

.

< Message edited by claystone -- 4/25/2015 8:40:07 PM >

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/26/2015 12:38:40 AM   
wdolson

 

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I think most of the people who worked on AE would love to build a new game engine, but most of us have other commitments now. I'm in that boat. Since 2010 I've been working contract for one company with some side projects always clamoring for attention too.

If someone would pay me to develop a game, that would be cool, but at the moment it would be unethical to leave my primary customer hanging. It would take them a long time to train someone to replace me. It's a very complex system and I'm the only one who understands how the whole thing goes together.

Raising money would help make such a project happen, but another bottleneck is getting the band back together again.

Bill

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/26/2015 12:41:39 AM   
btd64


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I have been thinking about this for over 3 years now. In fact I have asked someone if they can build the map and data files to get it rolling. I have started to look at OOB's, naval units and squadrons for this project. I am just waiting at the moment....GP

Edit; I for one would be able to contribute cash on a monthly basis also providing my time for research.

< Message edited by General Patton -- 4/26/2015 1:44:18 AM >


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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/26/2015 3:14:41 AM   
claystone_MatrixForum

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I think most of the people who worked on AE would love to build a new game engine, but most of us have other commitments now. I'm in that boat. Since 2010 I've been working contract for one company with some side projects always clamoring for attention too.

If someone would pay me to develop a game, that would be cool, but at the moment it would be unethical to leave my primary customer hanging. It would take them a long time to train someone to replace me. It's a very complex system and I'm the only one who understands how the whole thing goes together.

Raising money would help make such a project happen, but another bottleneck is getting the band back together again.

Bill



Hi Bill,

I would like to keep the same system just create a larger map that includes the eastern and western theater, along with inputting of course all the troops. The time frame to be 1941 till the end of the war.

I like how this game system plays and looks compare to the counter design system of WITE and WITW. So keep the template of WITPAE and create around it. Now, im no game programmer but i assume you can use this as your foundation.



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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/26/2015 8:33:37 AM   
fcharton

 

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The problem with using AE as a basis for a game on the european theater is that it would need a major change of scale. At the current scale, Normandy is a 2x3 hex area, where you'd have two or three huge stacks, fighting for 60+ turns, before one finally retreats or is surrounded. The russian front is larger, but you'd find the same kind of huge stacks everywhere, which would make all the small unit detail we get in AE useless...

Note also that the heart of AE is the supply system, which is predicated upon the difficulty to supply one's troops, and the need to build infrastructure. This happens because the battlefield is either islands or landmasses with little transportation (and very rough terrain). Europe isn't so. And the focus on oil and resources only makes sense because they are the reason why WWII was fought in the Pacific (it was not the case in europe, or at least not to the same extent).

As a result, just making a new map and OOB wouldn't work. You'd need to adapt the engine, and it would be very close to a rewrite because the paradigm would change. And even so, I suspect the end result would be disappointing : the supply model, which is what "works" in AE, would be so different, that a lot of the AE feeling we all love would be lost in the process. I think "AE in space" would in fact work better than "AE does Europe".

Of course, there are very good ideas in AE, and a lot of knowledge and research in the team and among the players, but what you ask for is closer to developping a new piece of software than just modding AE. And this makes the problem of building a team even more difficult, as you need a fairly large set of skills.

This said, I'd be very happy to contribute to such a projet...

Francois


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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/26/2015 11:08:30 AM   
wdolson

 

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Extending the map into other theaters creates another problem. Currently the database for units is fairly close to full and adding much more would be impossible. A war in Europe would also have to institute borders and neutrality that the current game system doesn't really handle.

As mentioned, supply and resources were also a different situation in Europe than in the Pacific. Germany was in a constant struggle for enough oil after the war with the USSR started, but for most other things, Germany could get what it needed either at home or near home (such as trading with Sweden). They did have some desperate shortages of some resources needed in limited quantities, but it was similar to the needs Japan had for some other limited quantity resources.

The siege of Britain was a situation of getting military material in, but also feeding the population too. I think the supply moving across the Atlantic would have to reflect the needs for feeding the civilian population as well as the military needs.

Some others have pointed out the hex scale is probably too small for Europe. Another issue is just about every single hex on the continent that isn't a mountain is a potential base. In North Africa and the steppes of the USSR, ad hoc airfields were set up just about anywhere needed. Planes would be ferried back to a field with more facilities for maintenance. The game engine currently can't do that. Damaged planes are always grounded.

I'm not saying that a European game would be impossible with this engine, but it would need some work.

A full world game would be interesting. It would probably take more than a day a turn to play, but I think you would have to break up the game data into theaters with units transferable between theater data bases. Then as you switch theaters, it loads up the data bases for that theater. To play with everything in one set of data bases would probably make everything way too slow.

Bill

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/26/2015 3:02:09 PM   
Numdydar

 

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I'll start saving up for the 2025 release then

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RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/26/2015 3:27:45 PM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

The problem with using AE as a basis for a game on the european theater is that it would need a major change of scale. At the current scale, Normandy is a 2x3 hex area, where you'd have two or three huge stacks, fighting for 60+ turns, before one finally retreats or is surrounded. The russian front is larger, but you'd find the same kind of huge stacks everywhere, which would make all the small unit detail we get in AE useless...

Note also that the heart of AE is the supply system, which is predicated upon the difficulty to supply one's troops, and the need to build infrastructure. This happens because the battlefield is either islands or landmasses with little transportation (and very rough terrain). Europe isn't so. And the focus on oil and resources only makes sense because they are the reason why WWII was fought in the Pacific (it was not the case in europe, or at least not to the same extent).

As a result, just making a new map and OOB wouldn't work. You'd need to adapt the engine, and it would be very close to a rewrite because the paradigm would change. And even so, I suspect the end result would be disappointing : the supply model, which is what "works" in AE, would be so different, that a lot of the AE feeling we all love would be lost in the process. I think "AE in space" would in fact work better than "AE does Europe".

Of course, there are very good ideas in AE, and a lot of knowledge and research in the team and among the players, but what you ask for is closer to developping a new piece of software than just modding AE. And this makes the problem of building a team even more difficult, as you need a fairly large set of skills.

This said, I'd be very happy to contribute to such a projet...

Francois



People are complaining about the 10 mile hexes in WitW so I can only imaging how they would feel about 45 mile hexes

Third Reich has a pretty large scale (65 miles?/hex) European map so that would give some idea of what the map would look like on a WitP scale. Not much room at all. Basically a WWI experience versus WWII. Italy one or two hexes wide. That sound like fun Not.

You might want to take a look at this http://schwerpunkt.wargamer.com/Eurdesc.html

As this is 7.5 miles per hex. Plus, while not the WitP system it is still pretty detailed.

Map scale is a very big deal in games. Which is one reason there are so few games covering the entire world. Paradox gets away with the HoI series by ignoring scale completely and using provinces. This way a lot of the large useless areas of the map can be huge sized while more densely areas can be made smaller.

WiF board game had two different scales for the ETO and PTO. When a unified map for the computer version was approved by ADG, people cried foul because the PTO now had more area but still the combatants had the same number of troops to cover the larger area.

The point of this is to model the entire world (or convert WitP scale to the ETO) one area is going to get shortchanged using hexes. I honestly think that the War in Europe (7.5 miles) really work well for the ETO. Much better than the 10 miles in WitW. Of course even in the ETO, 10 miles/hex works great in WitE. Again due to the large scale of the East compared to the West. So even within the confines of a single theater scale can (and should) vary.

Now if you wanted to capture the ETO (especially the Western/Desert fronts) experience, then than should determine the scale for the entire game. Yes the PTO will be 4-5 times bigger along with a huge amount of nothing. But a smaller scale in hexes will at least allow the important activities in the ETO to be played out correctly versus one or two giant stacks pounding it out turn after turn which is what you would get with a 45 mile/hex

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 29
RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? - 4/26/2015 5:43:08 PM   
obvert


Posts: 12484
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay

can it be possible to mod galley warfare into this map ?




Wooden ships and iron men? Too, please.


Love this game. Thought of getting a PBEM old-fashioned board game started a few years ago.

_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 30
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