Fall Gelb
Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets
Fall Gelb
A recent interesting topic of discussion came up within mine and Orm's AARse III thread.
Jagdtiger14 is a committed fan of Fall Gelb in S/O 1939 and I am keen to understand the merits and benefits of this (early removal of Denmark, Holland and Belgium leading to early fall of France) vs potential issues in Poland and US Entry issues (if any) + any others that may crop up.
Hope this turns into an interesting topic for the War Room.
Jagdtiger14 is a committed fan of Fall Gelb in S/O 1939 and I am keen to understand the merits and benefits of this (early removal of Denmark, Holland and Belgium leading to early fall of France) vs potential issues in Poland and US Entry issues (if any) + any others that may crop up.
Hope this turns into an interesting topic for the War Room.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: Fall Gelb
Here is MWIF Jagdtiger14 styleeeee:
This is an interesting idea so would like to try this out.
What I like to do: I usually go about 75-80% west (all ARM, Mech), all arty, and air west as well...except possibly the 2 point arty if I get it and any 2 point GS bomber if I get it (maybe the naval Stuka) goes to Poland. I have Leeb and the weakest INF (not GAR) vs Poland. My objective are the resources in the south of Poland, the naval over-run, and hemming in Lodz/Warsaw. I take down Poland slowly.
This is an interesting idea so would like to try this out.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: Fall Gelb
First though, I am struggling with the % of force split. I have done an initial set-up (below) that varies from JT14's only in so far as I have put what I consider to be a very minimum of German force in the East*.
I cannot get anywhere near 75%/80% of force in the west on this basis - currently 67.5% / 32.5%.
I have tried to spread out the Germans in the west so that they are not vulnerable to the surprise ground strike by CW/France.
*I have not set-up the Poles yet so this may be wrong.
I cannot get anywhere near 75%/80% of force in the west on this basis - currently 67.5% / 32.5%.
I have tried to spread out the Germans in the west so that they are not vulnerable to the surprise ground strike by CW/France.
*I have not set-up the Poles yet so this may be wrong.
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Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: Fall Gelb
Here is a bit more detail on the Polish Front as the aim is to get the resources first.
The hex northwest of Katowice contains 2 x 6-4 INF and von Leeb is with the Me-109
The hex northwest of Katowice contains 2 x 6-4 INF and von Leeb is with the Me-109
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Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: Fall Gelb
Before I set-up the Poles, any comment JT14? Any changes to the line up you suggest - or anybody else?
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: Fall Gelb
One of the advantages here of course is that the CW set up before the Germans. Their ability to put additional troops into Belgium / Holland / Denmark is affected by their TRS set-up. If the CW put a portion of these elsewhere (other than the UK) initially, this can work in the Germans favour.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: Fall Gelb
First question.
In this scenario does it make more sense for Poland to be aligned to France? The CW is hampered by the need to do Naval - France are less restricted in this regard.
In this scenario does it make more sense for Poland to be aligned to France? The CW is hampered by the need to do Naval - France are less restricted in this regard.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: Fall Gelb
Well let's leave that for now and look at possible Polish response.
Firstly, the Poles may want to ensure their aircraft are available to counter this set up and so will want them available to survive the first surprise turn. However, having only 2-strength bombers in situ, the Poles would be unlucky to lose (disorganise) these. Even so, they do not take the chance and keep them out of the way until they can fly them in next impulse.
The Poles will also want to ensure that the HQ is as safe from ground strike too. This set-up sees Gdynia defended (potential issue for German Baltic convoys) and a unit threatening Konigsberg / East Prussia.
With a chance of no ground strike success, two units are in Katowice. The HQ is safe as are the Polish aircraft. Assaults will be required in any attack.
Firstly, the Poles may want to ensure their aircraft are available to counter this set up and so will want them available to survive the first surprise turn. However, having only 2-strength bombers in situ, the Poles would be unlucky to lose (disorganise) these. Even so, they do not take the chance and keep them out of the way until they can fly them in next impulse.
The Poles will also want to ensure that the HQ is as safe from ground strike too. This set-up sees Gdynia defended (potential issue for German Baltic convoys) and a unit threatening Konigsberg / East Prussia.
With a chance of no ground strike success, two units are in Katowice. The HQ is safe as are the Polish aircraft. Assaults will be required in any attack.
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- aaaa.jpg (554.65 KiB) Viewed 426 times
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
- Jagdtiger14
- Posts: 1685
- Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:58 pm
- Location: Miami Beach
RE: Fall Gelb
I think the first thing is to define "Fall Gelb" as it means different things to different people.
My primary objective when doing a "Fall Gelb" is the defeat of France by the end of M/J'40.
Secondary objective to defeat France by the end of M/J'40 without the use of any O-chits.
Basically, taking advantage of any fair weather that might occur in S/O'39. Rain is also acceptable, and even perhaps snow.
My primary objective when doing a "Fall Gelb" is the defeat of France by the end of M/J'40.
Secondary objective to defeat France by the end of M/J'40 without the use of any O-chits.
Basically, taking advantage of any fair weather that might occur in S/O'39. Rain is also acceptable, and even perhaps snow.
Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC
RE: Fall Gelb
warspite1ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14
I think the first thing is to define "Fall Gelb" as it means different things to different people.
My primary objective when doing a "Fall Gelb" is the defeat of France by the end of M/J'40.
Secondary objective to defeat France by the end of M/J'40 without the use of any O-chits.
Basically, taking advantage of any fair weather that might occur in S/O'39. Rain is also acceptable, and even perhaps snow.
Sure, I just want to understand the implications/chances of success etc for this interesting idea. Have you any comments on my German placements?
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
- Mayhemizer_slith
- Posts: 9101
- Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:44 am
- Location: Finland
RE: Fall Gelb
If you play with break down armies/corps you can brake down worst INF to two divs in Kiel/coastal for potential invasion to Netherlands.
If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush.
-Murphy's war law
-Murphy's war law
RE: Fall Gelb
warspie1ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer
If you play with break down armies/corps you can brake down worst INF to two divs in Kiel/coastal for potential invasion to Netherlands.
Hi Mayhemizer - do you mind if we try and keep this is order please? I would like to explore Poland and then move onto Denmark/Holland/Belgium in subsequent impulses. Many thanks.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
- Jagdtiger14
- Posts: 1685
- Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:58 pm
- Location: Miami Beach
RE: Fall Gelb
Initial comment: No need for the southern most German hex facing the Maginot line to have a unit in it. There are more forest hexes to hide the ARM and Mech units. I like to put the 6 mover SP gun on the Danish border to sprint up to Fredrikshaven. Put two divisions in Kiel where most of the German fleet can be based...this is for invading Rotterdam.
As for the CW/French set up...set them up to make it the most difficult for Germany.
The other thing to consider is what optional rules are to be used? Defensive Shore Bombardment is typical, although I noticed not being used in some AAR's.
As for the CW/French set up...set them up to make it the most difficult for Germany.
The other thing to consider is what optional rules are to be used? Defensive Shore Bombardment is typical, although I noticed not being used in some AAR's.
Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC
RE: Fall Gelb
My take-away from the above set-up is that it is too light. Yes the Germans could ground strike Katowice and get a +1 but otherwise this is a 5:1 no modifiers on the Assault table (assuming von Leeb is not going to give HQ support this early in the process.
With two Polish units that is a 3/10 chance of failure to take the city, a 1/5 chance of loss (a 1 would mean two losses) and a 50% chance of disorganisation with von Leeb only being able to organise 2 units.
What do the Germans do in the north? Realistically a 3:1 no modifiers on the Assault table against the cavalry in Gdynia but this would leave no choice but to pull back to Konigsberg with the remaining INF.
With two Polish units that is a 3/10 chance of failure to take the city, a 1/5 chance of loss (a 1 would mean two losses) and a 50% chance of disorganisation with von Leeb only being able to organise 2 units.
What do the Germans do in the north? Realistically a 3:1 no modifiers on the Assault table against the cavalry in Gdynia but this would leave no choice but to pull back to Konigsberg with the remaining INF.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: Fall Gelb
warspite1ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14
Initial comment: No need for the southern most German hex facing the Maginot line to have a unit in it. There are more forest hexes to hide the ARM and Mech units. I like to put the 6 mover SP gun on the Danish border to sprint up to Fredrikshaven. Put two divisions in Kiel where most of the German fleet can be based...this is for invading Rotterdam.
As for the CW/French set up...set them up to make it the most difficult for Germany.
The other thing to consider is what optional rules are to be used? Defensive Shore Bombardment is typical, although I noticed not being used in some AAR's.
Okay I'll do this - although that leaves no DIV for losses in Poland?
Optionals - good point. See below.
I will amend the set up to make use of Forest but am mindful that if the weather turns rubbish, you need to be able to get to the target hexes!
Are you happy with the German set up against Poland?
- Attachments
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- aaaa.jpg (296.06 KiB) Viewed 428 times
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: Fall Gelb
Okay so that I can proceed I need to lock-down the German start positions. specifically:
- How far back do you think is acceptable risk re use of Forests (concern here is that the next impulse is Rain, Storm or Blizzard 5/12 chance)?
- Do you want to use both Divisions in the west (leaving none for losses in Poland)?
- Are there enough units facing the Poles and is the mix definitely right and their positioning?
- Does the Polish Front need a FTR to be on the safe side?
- Where does the GARR not needed for the Maginot Line go?
Current split of forces:
Air: West 82% - East 18%
Ground: West 62% - East 38%
Total: West 67.5% - East 32.5%
- How far back do you think is acceptable risk re use of Forests (concern here is that the next impulse is Rain, Storm or Blizzard 5/12 chance)?
- Do you want to use both Divisions in the west (leaving none for losses in Poland)?
- Are there enough units facing the Poles and is the mix definitely right and their positioning?
- Does the Polish Front need a FTR to be on the safe side?
- Where does the GARR not needed for the Maginot Line go?
Current split of forces:
Air: West 82% - East 18%
Ground: West 62% - East 38%
Total: West 67.5% - East 32.5%
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: Fall Gelb
If Poland is not aligned to CW they surrender at once.ORIGINAL: warspite1
First question.
In this scenario does it make more sense for Poland to be aligned to France? The CW is hampered by the need to do Naval - France are less restricted in this regard.
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
RE: Fall Gelb
warspite1ORIGINAL: Orm
If Poland is not aligned to CW they surrender at once.ORIGINAL: warspite1
First question.
In this scenario does it make more sense for Poland to be aligned to France? The CW is hampered by the need to do Naval - France are less restricted in this regard.
I thought Harry didn't like special one-off rules [;)]
Thanks Orm that takes a variable out and of course works to the German advantage.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: Fall Gelb
With this Polish set up it seems probable to me that the Germans get a automatic, or at worst, a 7-1 attack against Lodz during the first impulse. And the factory in Lodz and the resources are what you want in Poland.ORIGINAL: warspite1
Well let's leave that for now and look at possible Polish response.
Firstly, the Poles may want to ensure their aircraft are available to counter this set up and so will want them available to survive the first surprise turn. However, having only 2-strength bombers in situ, the Poles would be unlucky to lose (disorganise) these. Even so, they do not take the chance and keep them out of the way until they can fly them in next impulse.
The Poles will also want to ensure that the HQ is as safe from ground strike too. This set-up sees Gdynia defended (potential issue for German Baltic convoys) and a unit threatening Konigsberg / East Prussia.
With a chance of no ground strike success, two units are in Katowice. The HQ is safe as are the Polish aircraft. Assaults will be required in any attack.
The Polish defence must defend their factory cities better. It is not like you want to advance into Germany or East Prussia anyway.
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
RE: Fall Gelb
I am sure that he does not like them but players force him to do so.ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: Orm
If Poland is not aligned to CW they surrender at once.ORIGINAL: warspite1
First question.
In this scenario does it make more sense for Poland to be aligned to France? The CW is hampered by the need to do Naval - France are less restricted in this regard.
I thought Harry didn't like special one-off rules [;)]
Thanks Orm that takes a variable out and of course works to the German advantage.
As a example I can mention that in the past it became fairly common to align minor countries to China because they always take land impulses. And it forced a common DOW by Germany and Italy if both wanted to be at war with the minor.
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett