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Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/11/2015 9:22:06 PM   
oaltinyay

 

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I am reading about the Komodorsky Islands Battle and started thinking.

Why wasnt this place used for staging B29 raids ? I believe it's in range...

And ... assuming it's invaded, all of the islands in the chain .... I am guessing it'll be hard on USN to take it back ?

< Message edited by oaltinyay -- 4/11/2015 10:29:19 PM >
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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/11/2015 9:28:28 PM   
jwolf

 

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Just a guess, but weather in the Aleutians is terrible. Maybe for that reason the airbases there were not good choices for strategic bombing.

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/11/2015 9:35:17 PM   
oaltinyay

 

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I thought about that but ... really ? Anyone who could build a b29 can build and maintain a base to fly them even during "cold weather".

Gamewise , I dont think that'll be a problem though , right ?


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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/11/2015 9:58:55 PM   
bartrat


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Fog. The Japan current (warm) meets the cold currents from the north and FOG occurs.
Not to mention the cold, snow, and the rain in the "summer".
Also on some of the islands the ground is "spongy"; it is marsh-like and very wet. Hard to build airfields on this type of ground.

In the game it will suffer from the cold weather rules for ships (more damage possible) and increased bad weather for the aircraft that will limit your strikes.
Personally I would avoid this and use Central Pacific islands (easy to supply, in range of southern Japan, better weather).

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/11/2015 10:37:18 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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quote:

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay

I thought about that but ... really ? Anyone who could build a b29 can build and maintain a base to fly them even during "cold weather".

Gamewise , I dont think that'll be a problem though , right ?



There are penalties gamewise:

Cold Zones (Korea, Manchuria, Alaska, Siberia, the Aleutian Islands, the Himalayas/Tibet, Port
Stanley and an area of the Southern Ocean along the left side of the bottom map edge below
New Zealand and Australia) - The negative effects of these zones only function 4 months of the
year (winter) depending on the area; in the North they function November through February,
while in the South they function from May through August. Cold Zones during the winter impact
ground units the same way as Malaria Zones (above), with the following added penalties:
»» Ships moving in Cold Zones during the winter will suffer
operational system damage at double the normal rate.
»» All base construction in Cold Zones during winter takes twice as long.
»» Air units will fly 25% less aircraft on strike-type Missions.
»» Ground units unloading at an enemy base/beach or into a non-base hex with an
enemy unit will suffer roughly three times the losses they would normally suffer.

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/11/2015 11:04:41 PM   
oaltinyay

 

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I see....

On the other hand, say .. if I dont see myself winning rapidly in Pacific... I would use these bases against Japan as 'best there is' option....

From the Japanese perspective, a) closer and easily defensible b) may act as base to interdict pacific convoys from USA mainland.

any ideas ?


< Message edited by oaltinyay -- 4/12/2015 12:59:49 AM >

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/12/2015 12:57:01 AM   
JeffK


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As the Allies, use the Aleutians as a stepping stone into the Kuriles then Hokkaido. It keeps the JFB thinking and dispersing troops to defend the north. You can build airbases which can handle B24 easily.

As the JFB, to stop the above. If you wanted you could continue onto Alaska, not sure why except in the case of total Allied collapse. Also your b) has merit, approaching the Allied LOC from the north.

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/12/2015 2:06:39 AM   
crsutton


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B29s have a high service rating. I pretty much limit them to level 9 airfields and try to fly them only in decent weather.

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/12/2015 7:48:52 AM   
jmalter

 

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hmm, I don't think oaltinyay's idea b) is much use, since there's really not going to be a lot of Allied shipping that can't be more easily targeted from bases in the Marshalls / Gilberts.

now, an IJ early-game move to seize Adak could pay off as a spoiling attack, to deny it to the Allies for as long as possible - but building it up is a bad idea, any base-capabilities the IJ adds will only benefit the Allies when they take it back! IJ engineering efforts in the north might better be restricted to fortifying the Kuriles.

It can be really difficult to build bases up in the Arctic. I've had 94 Engr points at Dutch Harbor since shortly after 7 Dec 41. 5-1/2 months later, its 0 airfield is only 84% towards level 1.

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/12/2015 10:10:52 AM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bartrat

Also on some of the islands the ground is "spongy"; it is marsh-like and very wet. Hard to build airfields on this type of ground.

Morrison gives a good description on these problems. Bombers bumping 30 feet up in the air when touching down.

Fred

< Message edited by Leandros -- 4/12/2015 11:12:12 AM >


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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/12/2015 10:43:51 AM   
wdolson

 

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The Aleutians are the cauldron that generates most of the moisture that lands in North America west of the Rockies. The warm currents coming up from the equator collide with cold air and water coming down from the Arctic generating some of the worst weather on the planet. The game engine can't really reproduce just how awful a place it was to perform any kind of military operations.

My father was flying out of Attu in the last months of the war. The US had developed the ancestors of modern ground control operations just to be able to fly at all most days. Each plane had to be talked in by a ground controller closely watching a radar scope. Even then the accident rate was high. He said the entire time he was there they only took off once when it was clear enough to see past the engines. He learned they flew through a notch in the mountains immediately after take off and the sides of the mountain was littered with wrecks that didn't find the notch.

He loves airplanes, but won't fly in one again I think in large part because of his PTSD flying from there.

A couple of the Aleutian islands are large enough to accommodate B-24s, though there were never all that many bomber units in the theater. By the end of the war there were only 2 USAAF bomber squadrons in the entire theater, 1 B-25 and 1 B-24. The Aleutians are a subduction zone volcanic island chain (the Pacific Plate is being subducted just off the coast), this makes them young and very mountainous. Even if the weather could support large scale B-29 operations, the islands are too mountainous for basing many air units. There just isn't enough flat space (or space that can be made flat).

Bill


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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/12/2015 1:43:00 PM   
crsutton


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In my past game I fought a major campaign in the winter of 42 and 43 to take back the Aleutians. It pretty much was a waste of time and resources. In this campaign, I am not really fighting for them nor is my opponent trying to take them other than one or two key bases for patrols. We both realized that it is not the path to victory for either side.

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/12/2015 2:18:16 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The Aleutians are the cauldron that generates most of the moisture that lands in North America west of the Rockies. The warm currents coming up from the equator collide with cold air and water coming down from the Arctic generating some of the worst weather on the planet. The game engine can't really reproduce just how awful a place it was to perform any kind of military operations.

My father was flying out of Attu in the last months of the war. The US had developed the ancestors of modern ground control operations just to be able to fly at all most days. Each plane had to be talked in by a ground controller closely watching a radar scope. Even then the accident rate was high. He said the entire time he was there they only took off once when it was clear enough to see past the engines. He learned they flew through a notch in the mountains immediately after take off and the sides of the mountain was littered with wrecks that didn't find the notch.

He loves airplanes, but won't fly in one again I think in large part because of his PTSD flying from there.

A couple of the Aleutian islands are large enough to accommodate B-24s, though there were never all that many bomber units in the theater. By the end of the war there were only 2 USAAF bomber squadrons in the entire theater, 1 B-25 and 1 B-24. The Aleutians are a subduction zone volcanic island chain (the Pacific Plate is being subducted just off the coast), this makes them young and very mountainous. Even if the weather could support large scale B-29 operations, the islands are too mountainous for basing many air units. There just isn't enough flat space (or space that can be made flat).

Bill


Thank you for your interesting posting!

Fred


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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/12/2015 5:46:57 PM   
wneumann


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Occupy, build up and expand at least the major bases in the Aleutians as the Allied player, regardless of whether or not you're actually planning to launch a campaign in the North Pacific. You may change your mind later about plans in the North Pacific. Plus there may actually be a use for a fully developed port or airfield in the Aleutians that you haven't planned for originally - in that case it's there and handy.

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/12/2015 5:58:43 PM   
oaltinyay

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

hmm, I don't think oaltinyay's idea b) is much use, since there's really not going to be a lot of Allied shipping that can't be more easily targeted from bases in the Marshalls / Gilberts.

now, an IJ early-game move to seize Adak could pay off as a spoiling attack, to deny it to the Allies for as long as possible - but building it up is a bad idea, any base-capabilities the IJ adds will only benefit the Allies when they take it back! IJ engineering efforts in the north might better be restricted to fortifying the Kuriles.

It can be really difficult to build bases up in the Arctic. I've had 94 Engr points at Dutch Harbor since shortly after 7 Dec 41. 5-1/2 months later, its 0 airfield is only 84% towards level 1.



Actually it is 43/3 and I have the entire CL and CA ( sans 2 old CA )complement for IJN. I can see a possibility of convoy raiding supported by KB and AOs...Allied player lost much of its CVEs so not much help from there...

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/13/2015 7:42:22 AM   
JeffK


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Dont build an airbase on Dutch Harbour, just like IRL Unmak Island is a better option.

What does the JFB need to invest, a few Battalions to make a base and 1-2 AO's to refuel your Combat forces.

Having 2 approaches to the Allied LOC cant hurt, also provides an alternate line of retreat and makes the AFB think a little harder.

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/13/2015 12:09:06 PM   
oaltinyay

 

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I am simulating an attack run by 2 CL and 2 CA's supported by a single A0 and some CVLS for aircover and slowingdown , 3 days later out of Umnak I am in the convoy route to PH, 5 days out I can cause mischief in the bay area.

Well worth invading the place , I am guessing.

< Message edited by oaltinyay -- 4/13/2015 2:19:55 PM >

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/13/2015 1:30:21 PM   
crsutton


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Once the LST arrives on the scene, the Allied player can easily move up the Aleutian chain by taking bases with level 0 ports but good airfields. This can be done in winter because there are too many for the Japanese to occupy. By the spring of 43 you should be in good position. The Japanese bases should be starving by then and easily invaded in mid 43. God bless the LST...

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/14/2015 6:49:57 AM   
Barb


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Delaying position for the Japanese - you do not want the Allies to knock on your northern doors in 1942!

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/14/2015 7:47:11 PM   
oaltinyay

 

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Hmmm... especially if he's deficient in carriers but long on 4E Bombers...

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/14/2015 11:21:56 PM   
spence

 

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It should not be only a 4E bomber threat from the Aleutians (Attu). The northernmost Kuriles were struck by both USAAF and USN 2E bombers (B-25s, PV-1s and PV-2s). In reality IJ kept significant air and ground forces in the Kuriles because of the perceived threat from the Aleutians. Kind of nice that the IJ only has to worry about 4Es from that quarter.

As to the original post the weather in the Aleutians was and is horrendous. The ground is permanently frozen down to 6+ feet. Relatively warm temps in the summer might thaw the ground to 3 feet or so below ground level but then that thawed part of the ground tends to slide around on top of the permanently frozen ground underneath (the melted ice can't penetrate the permafrost so it just lubricates the dirt). Makes for moveable runways - not particularly favored by most pilots (the sane ones).

< Message edited by spence -- 4/15/2015 12:23:57 AM >

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/15/2015 1:35:16 AM   
wdolson

 

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That is an issue I've had with the game engine. The B-25s and PV-1/2s flying from Attu had extra fuel tanks installed and flew with a fairly limited bomb load. By 1945 US aircraft also had 140 octane fuel available and with the engines tuned properly they could get extra performance out of their aircraft using the higher octane fuel. Something the game engine can't support, and I'm sure the JFBs would scream murder if it did.

My father said that between the extra fuel and the extra radio equipment installed the B-25s they flew out of Attu were very heavy compared to B-25s flying in other theaters.

Bill

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/15/2015 2:51:38 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

That is an issue I've had with the game engine. The B-25s and PV-1/2s flying from Attu had extra fuel tanks installed and flew with a fairly limited bomb load. By 1945 US aircraft also had 140 octane fuel available and with the engines tuned properly they could get extra performance out of their aircraft using the higher octane fuel. Something the game engine can't support, and I'm sure the JFBs would scream murder if it did.

My father said that between the extra fuel and the extra radio equipment installed the B-25s they flew out of Attu were very heavy compared to B-25s flying in other theaters.

Bill


That's probably something that could be addressed with "ghost" upgrades in a mod later in the war, but it gets tricky as planes are actual devices and it would in effect be adding to the absolute total of aircraft that the Allies get already.

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/15/2015 7:12:45 AM   
Barb


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Actually B-25s in the Pacific mostly carried a fuel tank in their rear bomb bay cutting bomb capacity by half, but increasing operational radius considerably (A 215-gallon self-sealing fuel tank could be installed in the bomb bay, and provisions for a droppable 335-gallon metal bomb-bay fuel tank were made on every second airplane in addition to internal max.974 US gallons).

In SWPAC the usual bomb load for strafer modifications on ship/barge hunt was just 4x500lbs = 2000lbs - enough to get a solid spread for skip/masthead attack - 2 bombs on smaller and less protected target or 4 bombs on a higher priority or more protected target. The rest of the bomb capacity was taken by bomb bay tank.

I suppose that some later war B-25 strafers and navy versions should have had the drop tank option. Venturas had option for two 155 gallon drop tanks and Harpoons could carry two 165 gallon drop tanks... This would enable them to fly from Aleutians to Kuriles - at increased supply cost and reduced bomb load in game.

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/15/2015 8:32:27 AM   
JeffK


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Can you make a drop tank device with increased effect, only available for use by the relevant aircraft and only available after a date where you decide the changes should take place.

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/15/2015 10:58:41 AM   
oaltinyay

 

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Any creative ideas how to make Aleuts. some sort of "Japanese" Port Royal/Nassau for allied powers in 43. I have several free base units and "some" supply to go around.

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RE: Importance of Aleuts. for Japanese - 4/15/2015 8:06:32 PM   
spence

 

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Official USN Mission Reports for PV-1 bombings of Paramushiro/Shimuzu airfields/installations can be found at:

http://www.vpnavy.org/vp135_1940.html

The link has official reports by the plane commanders for multiple missions.

Of special note is that the payloads carried, altitudes and speeds used, as well as weather along the way are specified.

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