IN FLANDERS FIELD

operating · Post by **operating** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:54 am

A famous World War I poem: http://www.greatwar.co.uk/poems/john-mc ... fields.htm

by John McCrae, May 1915

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

uncc · Post by **uncc** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:08 pm

I remember it from high school (many, many years ago). While I didn't appreciate or truly understand it then, I do now...

operating · Post by **operating** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:37 pm

What brought this poem to mind: Is in a CTGW MP match French infantry, turn after turn were trying to defend a hex southwest of Verdun and simply getting slaughtered from my CP combined arms attacks, if it were real MP loses it would have been in the 500,000 range, through it all, till the French lost the hex, this poem kept entering my thoughts, for some reason I felt it's meaning.

Jagdtiger14 · Post by **Jagdtiger14** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:42 am

Any opinions on which side was the "good" side in WWI?

operating · Post by **operating** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:56 am

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Any opinions on which side was the "good" side in WWI?

Like you, I live in America and through the years pretty much have been influenced by those before me about WW I, if it had not been for the movie "All's Quiet on the Western Front", I would of thought that the losing side was all bad and that good prevailed. More than anything, I feel it was unfortunate that the war started at all.

Jagdtiger14 · Post by **Jagdtiger14** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:13 pm

Anyone who thinks the Allies were the "good" side should see the movie/documentary: Paris 1919. You can watch it on youtube.

Context for WWI goes back prior to and including the Franco-Prussian war in 1870. Germany (and Italy) were just a collection of separate minor states...with major powers (especially France) trying to keep them that way (I don't blame France for this policy for obvious reasons). Once these minor states came together as one, France should have dealt with this in a positive way (so much for the French pride in being stereo-typically diplomatic masters).

I'm American, but have German ancestry. My great grandmother (knew her for the first 23 years of my life) absolutely hated the Kaiser. She came here when she was 14 (1897) and had hatred for the Prussians ingrained into her (my family is from the Rhine-Hessen region and they were bullied by the Prussians) It wasn't until much later in life that I took an interest and researched the context and events that lead to WWI. I was amazed how much propaganda there was (and still is) about these events.

I cant believe there is a Woodrow Wilson Institute: "to commemorate the ideals and concerns of Woodrow Wilson".

Twotribes · Post by **Twotribes** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:46 pm

The simple fact remains that Germany and Austria Hungary STARTED WW1. It might have been an accident on the part of the Kaiser giving to much lea way to his General Staff but that is the fact of the matter.

Austria Hungary KNEW what would happen if they invaded Serbia. Germany should have known too. Russia would never let the Invasion stand and France was allied with Russia. Then add in the Germans decided to attack Belgium and bring in the British and again Germany started the War.

Jagdtiger14 · Post by **Jagdtiger14** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:12 pm

Tribes...I guess you didn't read my post completely? Context must be taken into account.

Ah, yes, it was so simple. Germany and Austria-Hungary STARTED the war. Never mind the assassination and Serbia's giving the finger to Austria-Hungary in turning over the assassin. It was later found out to be historically accurate that Serbian officials (Black Hand) were involved. Mobilizations (pre-ludes to war) were meaningless...only DOW's count!!!

Britain going to war over the opportunity to get rid of the new German fleet, er, I mean Belgium's neutrality.

And, the US was very fair and un-involved in European affairs when they adheared to the British "blockade" of German ports, but not the German blockade of British ports.

operating · Post by **operating** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:24 pm

Funny, my Father's parents immigrated by ship back in the 1800's from East Prussia (Posen and Stettin), Germany, which is now Poland. My Mother's side originates from Brittiney (SP?), France. Never got to meet any Grand parents, all deceased before I was born. So I had no first hand geo-political talk in my upbringing about their experiences in Europe, although I wish we had. Some of my German descendants fought in the American Civil War, I still possess their swords today. Having not played a semi-modern Europe style war game before had I felt an attachment to the upheaval of the period. In the course of playing CTGW did research on some of the history and pre-history of WW I, found it fascinating. Can't say just now who I felt were "Truly" the bad guys were of WW I, for there was so much Nationalism the world over back then, (you might even say today too) the problem Ukuraine (SP?) has comes to mind.

Twotribes · Post by **Twotribes** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:41 pm

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Tribes...I guess you didn't read my post completely? Context must be taken into account.

Ah, yes, it was so simple. Germany and Austria-Hungary STARTED the war. Never mind the assassination and Serbia's giving the finger to Austria-Hungary in turning over the assassin. It was later found out to be historically accurate that Serbian officials (Black Hand) were involved. Mobilizations (pre-ludes to war) were meaningless...only DOW's count!!!

Britain going to war over the opportunity to get rid of the new German fleet, er, I mean Belgium's neutrality.

And, the US was very fair and un-involved in European affairs when they adheared to the British "blockade" of German ports, but not the German blockade of British ports.

The Serbs met every demand that Austria Hungary made of them EXCEPT to allow TROOPS into their Country. Pray tell what Country would allow Foreign troops in their Country to run roughshod over their laws?

Germany murdered civilians aboard civilian luxury liners, Yup I can see how the two were similar.

Just admit you are biased and I will admit I believe everything I said and we can be done with this attempt to rewrite history.

operating · Post by **operating** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:31 pm

Wikipedia:

War justifications[edit]

Austria-Hungary regarded the assassination of Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand as being orchestrated with the assistance of Serbia.[5] The country viewed the assassination as setting a dangerous precedent of encouraging the country's South Slav population to rebel and threaten to tear apart the multinational country.[6] Austria-Hungary formally sent an ultimatum to Serbia demanding a full-scale investigation of Serbian government complicity in the assassination, and complete compliance by Serbia in agreeing to the terms demanded by Austria-Hungary.[5] Serbia submitted to accept most of the demands, however Austria-Hungary viewed this as insufficient and used this lack of full compliance to justify military intervention.[10] These demands have been viewed as a diplomatic cover for what was going to be an inevitable Austro-Hungarian declaration of war on Serbia.[10]

Austria-Hungary had been warned by Russia that the Russian government would not tolerate Austria-Hungary crushing Serbia.[10] However with Germany supporting Austria-Hungary's actions, the Austro-Hungarian government hoped that Russia would not intervene and that the conflict with Serbia would be a regional conflict.[5]

Austria-Hungary's invasion of Serbia resulted in Russia declaring war on the country and Germany in turn declared war on Russia, setting off the beginning of the clash of alliances that resulted in the World War.

Will get to the "Demand details" later. What I get from the above quote; Is that Germany was a reluctant backer of AH because of a 1879 Treaty/Alliance they had signed, they had no choice, for you are only as good as your word.

operating · Post by **operating** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:55 pm

Wikipedia:

Member states[edit]

The Central Powers consisted of the German Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire at the beginning of the war. The Ottoman Empire joined the Central Powers later in 1914. In 1915, the Kingdom of Bulgaria joined the alliance. The name "Central Powers" is derived from the location of these countries; all four (including the other groups that supported them except for Finland and Lithuania) were located between the Russian Empire in the east and France and the United Kingdom in the west. Finland, Azerbaijan, and Lithuania joined them in 1918 before the war ended and after the Russian Empire collapsed.

Never realized that Finland, Azerbaijan and Lithuania joined the Central Powers till now...... Did you?[:)]

Jagdtiger14 · Post by **Jagdtiger14** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:14 am

Tribe: As to my bias in this, I have none. My great grandmother who hated the Kaiser would be angry with me;-) I simply state that there was no "good" side. The Allied and Central powers were both just as bad and complicit in what happened. As operating wrote above: "its unfortunate the war started at all". My point is that 100 years later I hope we can discover/reflect on the truths rather than the propaganda. I think most would agree that it would have been better for the world for Germany to have won the First Battle of the Marne, and have taken Paris (the war would have been 1+ month long among other important factors). An interesting question would be...would Britain and Russia have fought on without France?

As for the Serbs to allow troops into their country...they should have thought about the ramifications of supporting the assassination in the first place. They didn't think that one through very well. They were obvious trouble makers.

If you are referring to the sinking of the Lusitania...was that ship not containing arms for Britain? Who in their right mind would combine civilians with war material?...oh, W. Wilson and modern day jihadists. The US/Britain bear partial responsibility on that one. Now, the Zimmerman Telegram...that was bone-headed!!!

Orm · Post by **Orm** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:20 pm

Now, the Zimmerman Telegram...that was bone-headed!!!

For a long time I considered the possibility that the telegram was a British intelligence operation to get US to join the war. I had a hard time believing anyone to be so stupid to send such a telegram. And so stupid not to expect the British to read it. Now I do believe they were just that stupid.

Orm · Post by **Orm** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:23 pm

ORIGINAL: operating

Wikipedia:

Member states[edit]

The Central Powers consisted of the German Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire at the beginning of the war. The Ottoman Empire joined the Central Powers later in 1914. In 1915, the Kingdom of Bulgaria joined the alliance. The name "Central Powers" is derived from the location of these countries; all four (including the other groups that supported them except for Finland and Lithuania) were located between the Russian Empire in the east and France and the United Kingdom in the west. Finland, Azerbaijan, and Lithuania joined them in 1918 before the war ended and after the Russian Empire collapsed.

Never realized that Finland, Azerbaijan and Lithuania joined the Central Powers till now...... Did you?[:)]

I am not sure that German created client states counts as joining the Central Powers. Rather a effect of the peace with Russia.

Edit: Did these client states provide any forces that fought the Western Allies?

operating · Post by **operating** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:01 pm

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: operating

Wikipedia:

Member states[edit]

The Central Powers consisted of the German Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire at the beginning of the war. The Ottoman Empire joined the Central Powers later in 1914. In 1915, the Kingdom of Bulgaria joined the alliance. The name "Central Powers" is derived from the location of these countries; all four (including the other groups that supported them except for Finland and Lithuania) were located between the Russian Empire in the east and France and the United Kingdom in the west. Finland, Azerbaijan, and Lithuania joined them in 1918 before the war ended and after the Russian Empire collapsed.

Never realized that Finland, Azerbaijan and Lithuania joined the Central Powers till now...... Did you?[:)]
I am not sure that German created client states counts as joining the Central Powers. Rather a effect of the peace with Russia.

Edit: Did these client states provide any forces that fought the Western Allies?

I've been fishing around to see if what you ask has any merit. Can't always depend on what Wikipedia says as being Gospel, however there is tidbits of info concerning these new found countries at or around the time of their Independence. It would be something to find if logistical or troop support came to play in their joining CP. In a prior post I noticed that when Russia surrendered in CTGW that the results displayed an Independent Finland without a Diplomat flag or production window/panel.

operating · Post by **operating** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:01 pm

Orm

Did find this: https://books.google.com/books?id=DBwTB ... rs&f=false
Where 2,000 Finns in light infantry fought for CP against the Russians on the Eastern front, there maybe more info to add later...

Bob

operating · Post by **operating** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:19 pm

Add this article to the Finnish light infantry CP history: http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/news. ... 0020930IE7

Some 85 years ago, the heathlands of Schleswig-Holstein in Germany witnessed the birth of a national liberation army of another European country during a time when the rights of smaller nations were not exactly all the rage in Europe. A couple of thousand young Finns - farmers, students and workmen - received military training at the Lockstedt military camp of the time.

operating · Post by **operating** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:38 pm

In this article: Describes the emergence of Polish military units fighting both on behalf of CP and the Entente, plus other little known facts about WW I: http://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.ne ... ral_europe plus added info pertaining to the Finnish Jaegers.

Saint Ruth · Post by **Saint Ruth** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:19 pm

I like that (Flander's Fields) but also this:

SUICIDE IN THE TRENCHES

By Siegfried Sassoon

I knew a simple soldier boy
Who grinned at life in empty joy,
Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
And whistled early with the lark.
In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
He put a bullet through his brain.
No one spoke of him again.

You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.

And of course this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GxLOenKHjE

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