R&D Aircraft Factory Questions

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Omnius
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R&D Aircraft Factory Questions

Post by Omnius »

I'm trying to figure out the game and have found invaluable information posted here. I just found some interesting discussions regarding Player Defined Upgrades, took a while to figure out that was what PDU meant.

I've let the AI's play until 4/2/46 and noticed that the Japanese AI had no R&D Aircraft Factories left. I had the PDU set to off. I had the Realistic R&D set to on. I'm curious as to how the Japanese AI managed to change all of those R&D factories to production factories. Does the Japanese AI get to ignore this setting and convert all R&D factories to production factories?

I'm wondering what setting to use so that I don't end up with a bunch of R&D factories doing nothing once all aircraft R&D is finished. I'm assuming that I should use the off setting.

I'm also curious about the ramifications of the Player Defined Upgrades setting. I read the pros and cons of having the setting on and off and am a tad confused as some of the posts seemed counterintuitive. Some said that having the setting set to off makes the game unbalanced for the Japanese, when I would assume it would have the opposite effect. It would be nice to be able to designate which choice of fighter goes into fighter units so that I can better control my fighter inventory, or bombers. That seems to mean I want to use the on setting for PDU's.

Omnius
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Lokasenna
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RE: R&D Aircraft Factory Questions

Post by Lokasenna »

If you only looked on 4/2/46, it is probable that every model with an R&D factory had reached production by that time, and so automatically switched to production.

If you want a factory to remain R&D, you need to switch it from one model to the next (or another model in a different line of planes) before it switches to production, or else it will suffer damage when you change it. You can safely change to the next model in the chain when the text for the factory turns blue and has the progress towards an advancement in ()'s. Changing the Realistic R&D setting to OFF will allow you to move all the way up the line rather than just one model at a time, including from a production factory to R&D, without suffering damage... but you must still have the factory repaired to full.

Also, a size of 30 is the ideal size for R&D factories.
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rustysi
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RE: R&D Aircraft Factory Questions

Post by rustysi »

Let's see if I can shine some light on this topic for you.

PDU on makes life somewhat easier IMHO. It gives you more flexibility as to what units can upgrade to what planes. Otherwise you are restricted to historical/game defined upgrades. Keep in mind that this goes both ways as the Allied player will benefit from this too.

Again IMHO PDU on makes your R&D easier, as you don't have to research planes that you may not want just to get the few chutai (or whatever) that may use them. IOW you can streamline your R&D better. Once an R&D factory has 'repaired' all of its A/C points ('factories') it may or may not become a production factory when the A/C production date arrives. This is up to you, and I guess you can end up without any R&D factories if you choose. I'm not 100% sure if you should/shouldn't do this, although you might get to the point that everything you want to R&D is done. I wouldn't worry too much as to what the AI does or doesn't do, its my understanding that it may do various things to make it better able to 'play' the game. As for realistic R&D I would only play with it on. In case you're not aware it allows you to move factories back and forth between research and production. Hey you gotta draw the line somewhere. BTW keep in mind that Japanese A/C production does have a finite limit, if you produce too many planes you will burn through too much HI. You'll also probably produce more planes than you can use, even as Kami's.

Hope this helps a bit. Anything else just ask.
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Numdydar
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RE: R&D Aircraft Factory Questions

Post by Numdydar »

All too true on over producing as Japan. There are only a few places where Japan can have the supplies/support to be able to manage large scale air ops outside of Japan. CenPac and SoPAc are not these areas [:(]

You can pack in a lot of AC at Rabaul however, getting the planes and the support (which is far more important) them out when the Allies come in force is a minor issue, not [:D]
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Omnius
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Good Answer

Post by Omnius »

Lokasenna,
Thanks for the informative answer that R&D factories will turn automatically into production factories. I looked a lot more often than at the end of the game at production. However I didn't know if I could replicate the AI's ability to change R&D factories to production ones without changing the Realistic R&D setting.

I don't want to game the R&D, don't want to cheat my way to the top of the plane lines. I was just looking to make sure I could switch R&D factories to production once all R&D is finished.

I was under the impression that R&D factories would automatically switch from one plane type to the next in line for R&D purposes. You kind of give me the impression I have to switch them myself to R&D the next upgrade in the series.

I'm not sure how much I want to build up R&D factories as I don't want to build too many that then switch to production giving me too many production factories that can't be supported with HI points. I saw the Japanese AI mess that up grandly.

Omnius
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Omnius
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Another Good Answer

Post by Omnius »

rustysi,
Thanks for the dope on PDU settings. I don't intend to game the R&D system by cheating not researching every aircraft. I just don't want to be restricted by historical choices the Japanese or Allies made regarding what planes are flown.

I've also figured out that by controlling the individual air group upgrade settings that I can keep some units flying older models rather than let too many rust in reserve.

I most definitely watched the Japanese AI burn through too much HI with planes. Engine and aircraft production were over 155,000 monthly HI points needed while HI production was shortchanged because of local fuel shortages. Watching the AI can be very instructive in what not to do. I also think it underdeveloped LI factories, it had way too many resources left as did the Allied one. I also doubt the Japanese AI built up HI factories.

I've also seen that it's wise to watch engine production to make sure that I produce enough engines for the planes being produced. Looks like a few engines are short on production compared to the planes produced which use them. Since new factories start damaged I've decided to build them one at a time and wait until one is repaired before building another new one.

Omnius
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Omnius
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Smarter Production

Post by Omnius »

Numdydar,
I did see the Japanese AI over produce aircraft factories, then have a severe shortage of HI to actually build engines and planes with. I think the Japanese AI didn't build up Armaments and Vehicle factories as it had something like 3 million manpower left at the end of the game just sitting wasted in the pool. I'll also increase LI production so that I can use manpower in ground units that actually control VP cities.

Omnius
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Barb
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RE: Smarter Production

Post by Barb »

I actually think that AI is "cheating" up there - just spawning the required engines and planes right into the pools - Thus it cannot really run itself out of airframes.

Altough IIRC AI is using the same 7-day replacement cycle in air units as you are...
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RE: Good Answer

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Omnius
You kind of give me the impression I have to switch them myself to R&D the next upgrade in the series.

Yes. Once they go into production, you cannot retrench their research function. Thus, unless you want your research factories for the entirety of the Ki-44 IIa line to all go to producing the IIa (and not researching the IIb or IIc for example), you've got to make the switch prior to their changeover.

Be sure that the next aircraft in the line is truly the next sequentially in the line and not a function of another wholly unrelated research lineage. For example, the A6M2 research and production does not lead to the A6M3a or A6M5 (carrier aircraft), but the land lubber A6M3.

Likewise, the Frank lineage goes from the 'a' model to the 'r' model. The 'b' model? An entirely independent research lineage. Choose wisely.
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Omnius
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Upgrade Path from R&D to Production

Post by Omnius »

Chickenboy,
Thanks for the answer. I'm starting to get the idea that R&D aircraft & engine factories upgrade directly to production factories for the aircraft or engine they research. I've been learning a lot reading forum posts.

I decided to make myself a production spreadsheet for planes & engines in my laptop while I play in my iMac's Windows partition. Now I'll be able to easily see how many HI points are needed for production plus if I have surpluses or shortages of engine production. I found an error in the Industry Management Screen's computation of airframe HI costs as the program is not taking into account how many engines an airframe has. I still have to input how many of each plane are on the map and will be needed for reinforcements so I can see easily when I can stop producing some items and can switch them to other item production.

Omnius
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rustysi
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RE: Upgrade Path from R&D to Production

Post by rustysi »

Careful there Omnius, remember there's a big picture here, not just the short term. Sometimes having an excess of an engine type is very desirable. Like for instance when you are R&Ding aircraft. Once an R&D factory is fully repaired if you have more than 500 of the A/C's engine in the pool you'll get a bonus of one point per day toward the A/C's advanced production date. That is to say you'll get the bonus every time the factory gives you a point and you have 500 engines. This bonus point will consume an engine. Hey, you don't expect to get it for free, do you?[:D]

One other thing, there are 'switches' that will stop your R&D factories from going into production. Look at the industry screen. Hotkey is 'j', or click on it up in the menu bar. From there you can isolate the R&D by clicking the 'All' topic and turning R&D on by clicking it. On that screen you'll see three columns on the left that are toggled 'yes/no'. Setting the 'prod' column to 'no' should turn the R&D factory 'off' for production. Keeping it as an R&D factory which you can then switch to the next model in the path with no loss of prodution, i.e. no need to repair factories.
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

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Omnius
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Lots of Details

Post by Omnius »

rustysi,
Thanks for the good tips about plane production & R&D. I did read about having in excess of 500 engines helping with R&D, although I don't recall the engine cost when one gets that bonus. Thanks for that warning.

I finished my spreadsheet and included a column for upgrade paths so I know which planes upgrade to which. I went into the editor to gain that info. Now I can see every plane under every engine and see how many engines may be needed. Of course it doesn't take losses into account but it sure gives me some comprehension of engine needs.

I'm still wrestling over R&D aircraft and engines and how much of each to build. I saw one suggestion of 30 but am wondering if that is excessive. I don't want to have too many factories and don't want to waste too many supplies, manpower and HI points to build R&D factories that may then be overkill burning through too many HI points once into actual production. I saw this in the AI game played to the end.

Thanks for the useful tip about turning off the production of R&D factories so they don't automatically turn into production factories but can be switched to a new model of R&D. Slowly but surely I'm getting a better idea of this whole Japanese aircraft production scheme.

Another thing that puzzles me is the slew of old monoplane trainer aircraft that come in in 1945. Reminds me of the old saying about closing the barn door after all of the horses have escaped the barn. However it does appear that sufficient numbers of them should be built so that those air units can come on the map. Then I could swap out those old trainers for older aircraft to free up planes to bring in more groups of the same type until all are brought on.

I'm going to update my spreadsheet on the 1st of every month, that way I'm not wasting too much time trying to update the spreadsheet instead of playing the game. I even have columns for reinforcements and withdrawals happening for the month but don't include them into my calculations. I should get a really good big picture look over time of Japanese aircraft production and HI needs.

Omnius
Numdydar
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RE: Lots of Details

Post by Numdydar »

Yes heartily agree on monthly changes to Japanese production. As you really need that time to see the impact of the previous changes.

30 fully repaired R&D factories is the correct number you need. This along with 500+ engines in the pool for that particular AF for the entire month will maximize R&D acceleration for Japan. This combination will provide 1 point per day (30 repaired factories/30 days in production month) and 1 point for the engine pool. So with 2 points per day, this means about every 50 days you can accelerate an AF one month as you need 100+ R&D points for a chance of an advance. The longer you stay over 100 points the higher the acceleration becomes. I've had it get as high as 124 before an advance occurs [:@] Damned RNG [:D]

Having said all of this, you are correct in that you do NOT want every R&D factory to be expanded to 30. This is even more true with PDU Off as your squadrons are much more limited as to what AF they can upgrade to. With PDU On you have much more flexibility with aircraft so you definitely want 30 R&D factories for Franks, Zero's, etc. and leave the lesser AF R&D factories alone or switch them to a different AF and just never produce them [:)]

I should also point out that the die rolls for generating points is determined in an odd way. This means have three 10 R&D factories is NOT the same as having just one at 30. Theoretically, the 10 should average out to be the same as the single 30, but it does not seem to work that way. As each of the 10's only have a 1/3 chance/day to generate a point. The reason this does not work out in the game is once you accelerate an AF one month the points are reset to 0. So the three 10 factories average of their numbers have to be reset too.

While the above may not be very clear (and I am sure it is not [:(]) the bottom line is a single R&D factory of 30 is better in the long run than a bunch of smaller factories .
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RE: Lots of Details

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Yes heartily agree on monthly changes to Japanese production. As you really need that time to see the impact of the previous changes.

A lot of people say this, and I don't agree. At least I don't if you've done it before or have drawn it all out on a big ol' piece of paper and know what you're doing.

If you're experimenting, then yes - go slowly and see what happens. If you're experimenting against the AI, you can go a bit faster and I actually encourage you to make boneheaded mistakes. Best way to learn.


But you absolutely do not have to wait a month when you've made changes. I routinely tweak my production. As long as you are careful when you expand, remember to think "Do I really need to double my Ha-31 production [for example], or can I manage this with better use of assets?", then you will be OK. Just make sure that your answer to that question is fully informed.

1)Know how much supply you are spending.

2) Know how much of what the changes will get you.

3) Know the future production trends. You don't need as many Ha-35 once you've moved on to the A7M Sam, B6N Jill, and so on... repairing the factory to another type later costs a ton of supply, and not overbuilding is hard.

3a) Piggybacking on that, manage your pools. Curtail production of the Ha-35 when you no longer need it for R&D and your planned late war kamikazes that use the engine are built. If your pools are rising for something that you are using less of, maybe you can cut back on that. This allows you to continue producing ARM/VEH points, or simply save more HI for the late war planes/ARM/VEH that you will need.

4)If necessary, estimate the impact of the Allied offensive on your industry and plan accordingly.


If you do those things, you can make daily adjustments if you want to. You'd never need to, but I do find myself fiddling with things every week or two weeks or so, depending on ship production schedules and R&D advancements.
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RE: Lots of Details

Post by Numdydar »

I can see how that could be interpreted as never do anything but once a month. But that is not what I meant.

Of course you tweak things as events in production occur. Especially when R&D factories turn Blue. Which means they will switch to Production if you do not take action.

What I do only once a month is

1. Review engine need versus production and adjust by increasing factories by 10 to 20 or turning off factories. I could adjust more depending on need but try to keep adjustments so they will be completed within a 30 day window.
2. Review AC pools and adjust production as needed, increase/turn off.
3. Track both pools on a monthly basis to see trends so adjustments can be made slowly over time versus 'Oh crap I'm out of X' reactions [:)]

Of course the only thing that all this production stuff does is determine when, not if, you will lose [:(] So any JFB thinking that all of this will make any difference against a competent AFB will be sadly mistaken. As long as you go into playing Japan with this mindset, the production 'game' can be a lot of fun. But its impact on the final outcome is pretty small.
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RE: Lots of Details

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I can see how that could be interpreted as never do anything but once a month. But that is not what I meant.

Of course you tweak things as events in production occur. Especially when R&D factories turn Blue. Which means they will switch to Production if you do not take action.

What I do only once a month is

1. Review engine need versus production and adjust by increasing factories by 10 to 20 or turning off factories. I could adjust more depending on need but try to keep adjustments so they will be completed within a 30 day window.
2. Review AC pools and adjust production as needed, increase/turn off.
3. Track both pools on a monthly basis to see trends so adjustments can be made slowly over time versus 'Oh crap I'm out of X' reactions [:)]

Of course the only thing that all this production stuff does is determine when, not if, you will lose [:(] So any JFB thinking that all of this will make any difference against a competent AFB will be sadly mistaken. As long as you go into playing Japan with this mindset, the production 'game' can be a lot of fun. But its impact on the final outcome is pretty small.

Japan always loses the war - but does it lose the game? That's why there are victory conditions!

Sorry if it seemed like I was jumping on you. That wasn't my intent.

I review aircraft/engine pools far more often, but I also use daily historical data from Tracker to inform my decisions.
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Are You Sure?

Post by Omnius »

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Setting the 'prod' column to 'no' should turn the R&D factory 'off' for production. Keeping it as an R&D factory which you can then switch to the next model in the path with no loss of prodution, i.e. no need to repair factories.

rustysi,
Are you sure turning the production to off keeps an R&D factory from upgrading? I'm thinking it's turning off the Upgrade switch that keeps a factory from upgrading. I'm thinking that for an R&D factory that has all factories repaired and is producing R&D development points that turning off production turns off producing R&D development points, something not desirable.

Omnius

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Omnius
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Monthly Spreadsheet, Daily Changes

Post by Omnius »

Lokasenna,
Some good advice but I only will make spreadsheet changes monthly to reduce time spent on updating the spreadsheet. I will make daily changes to actual production. For factories that are already producing I make a one increment change, then wait for the factory to be repaired before adding another factory. That way I don't waste too many HI, supply and manpower points on any one turn. Plus with engines that are short of planes needing them I try to add more engines while slowly adding new plane production so I don't burn through my engine pool too quickly and have to turn plane production off to rebuild engines.

Slowly but surely I'm figuring out which plane types I want and which I'm not wild about. I'm definitely not wild about Tokas, a flying bomb with no machine guns to protect it from CAP.

One thing I'm doing on day 1 is to upgrade the 10 factor Ki-27b Nate factory to the Oscar Ki-43-Ic model. I know I'll lose a few factories doing this but they'll help produce Oscars earlier so I can start upgrading those short-range Nates to longer ranged Oscars. I'll keep making those Nates with the 35 point factory until about 3 or 4/42 when the Oscar Ki-43-IIa model comes along. Then I'll upgrade the Nate and Oscar factories to that model.

Omnius

Why does having fun have to be so much work?
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RE: Monthly Spreadsheet, Daily Changes

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Omnius

Lokasenna,
Some good advice but I only will make spreadsheet changes monthly to reduce time spent on updating the spreadsheet. I will make daily changes to actual production. For factories that are already producing I make a one increment change, then wait for the factory to be repaired before adding another factory. That way I don't waste too many HI, supply and manpower points on any one turn. Plus with engines that are short of planes needing them I try to add more engines while slowly adding new plane production so I don't burn through my engine pool too quickly and have to turn plane production off to rebuild engines.

Slowly but surely I'm figuring out which plane types I want and which I'm not wild about. I'm definitely not wild about Tokas, a flying bomb with no machine guns to protect it from CAP.

One thing I'm doing on day 1 is to upgrade the 10 factor Ki-27b Nate factory to the Oscar Ki-43-Ic model. I know I'll lose a few factories doing this but they'll help produce Oscars earlier so I can start upgrading those short-range Nates to longer ranged Oscars. I'll keep making those Nates with the 35 point factory until about 3 or 4/42 when the Oscar Ki-43-IIa model comes along. Then I'll upgrade the Nate and Oscar factories to that model.

Omnius

Why does having fun have to be so much work?

I highly recommend that you install and use Tracker - it will do a lot of that dirty spreadsheet work for you [:)]. I've attached an example. There is a sticky thread for it in the main WITP:AE forum. You would need to install and use Java 6 (any version, I use update 37 or update 45 depending on the computer). After that, it's just a matter of unzipping Tracker to a folder and pointing the BATCH (.bat) file to the correct java.exe for Java 6.

Here's the shot. I don't have very many turns loaded into Tracker here due to a new install, but imagine this on a daily basis... for every airframe, every engine, every device in your pools, every pilot, every air group, and so on. It will also track global resource levels (supply, HI, Oil, Fuel, etc.). If you want to dig into the numbers and track your stuff... Tracker!

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rustysi
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RE: Monthly Spreadsheet, Daily Changes

Post by rustysi »

rustysi,
Are you sure turning the production to off keeps an R&D factory from upgrading? I'm thinking it's turning off the Upgrade switch that keeps a factory from upgrading. I'm thinking that for an R&D factory that has all factories repaired and is producing R&D development points that turning off production turns off producing R&D development points, something not desirable.

Pretty sure it stops R&D factories from going to production. The only reason I say pretty sure is because I'm usually on top of things like this and I move my R&D on to the next plane in the inventory right away. It definitely does not stop producing R&D development points because I do it all the time and my R&D progresses.
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

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