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Mini subs - 1/26/2015 10:56:50 PM   
Lowpe

 

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Mini subs get maligned pretty regularly by JFB. They offer quite a lot of victory points for the Allies, and seem to die very often although in my experience they usually have pretty decent commanders.

Anybody have any tricks or tips on using these guys?

Also, there are several models available..a fast one and a slow one. When you buy them with supplies, often the minisubs are mixed up with both fast and slow ones in each task force. I will post some pictures later...

It seems to me the fast ones might be good for base defense, and the slow ones launched into an enemy port to hit docked ships.

I always segregate them by speed.

I always send them back to the pools when their detection levels get high. Almost always.

They can move a couple of hexes, so having them move from one base to an invasion base seems to make sense...like in the Marshalls.

Anyhow, here is a post in from the past about minisubs...the only one I could find.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3110678&mpage=1&key=minisubs�

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 1/27/2015 12:09:47 AM >
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RE: Mini subs - 1/26/2015 11:02:49 PM   
Lowpe

 

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A typical freshly created minisub squadron. See, it mixes the speed!




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RE: Mini subs - 1/26/2015 11:03:30 PM   
Lowpe

 

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Here is the fast minisub...




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RE: Mini subs - 1/26/2015 11:04:58 PM   
Lowpe

 

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Here is the slow minsub. Good endurance.




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RE: Mini subs - 1/26/2015 11:07:20 PM   
Lowpe

 

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Jan 44 model.




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RE: Mini subs - 1/26/2015 11:08:58 PM   
Lowpe

 

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Last version of a minsub.




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RE: Mini subs - 1/27/2015 12:52:35 AM   
wdolson

 

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They are largely chrome. Like the blind pig, they occasionally get a truffle, but they are of limited use on offense. They can give the Allies some headaches on defense. An invasion TF with poor ASW support might get some damage.

Bill

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RE: Mini subs - 1/27/2015 2:50:02 PM   
Yaab


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Never understood while midgets are worth 4 Victory Points. I would rate them 0.4 VP at most. Are they really worth 2 x B-29s (each destroyed 4E bomber is worth 2 VP)?

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RE: Mini subs - 1/27/2015 3:52:50 PM   
Lowpe

 

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A success, few and far, far between.






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RE: Mini subs - 1/27/2015 3:54:11 PM   
Lowpe

 

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Usual outcome:




Partial list only. Note the operational casualty was an exploding battery pack!

Not sure why most are 3 vp.

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 1/27/2015 4:57:35 PM >

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RE: Mini subs - 1/27/2015 4:04:22 PM   
Yaab


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Easiest VPs for Allies in the whole war. Most of them suicided themselves on obstruction.

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RE: Mini subs - 1/27/2015 6:15:38 PM   
Lowpe

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Easiest VPs for Allies in the whole war. Most of them suicided themselves on obstruction.


Full disclosure,and for me to save what little reputation I have; anything lost before 8/1/42 wasn't under my leadership!

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 1/27/2015 7:16:44 PM >

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RE: Mini subs - 1/27/2015 6:48:31 PM   
mind_messing

 

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As wdolson says, they're a shot in the dark. Nine times out of ten they'll do nothing but die. My attitude is that you need to make invasions as dangerous as possible. Mini-subs may be even less use than mines, but at the very least it forces the Allies to pay attention to ASW.

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RE: Mini subs - 1/27/2015 7:08:07 PM   
castor troy


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midgets are pretty much the most useless toy you get to play with as the Japanese. But they were put into the game as we campaigned for years to get them! Wasn't it Mogami who was the midget fanboy?

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RE: Mini subs - 1/27/2015 7:19:23 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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they are as useless as they were in real life

That said, VP are totally wrong. Should be "zero" or maybe "one" if it is not possible to put a value of 0


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RE: Mini subs - 1/27/2015 7:23:35 PM   
Lokasenna


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More VPs than an LST!

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RE: Mini subs - 1/27/2015 10:16:27 PM   
Coach Zuck

 

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I think besides hitting a Battleship @ Pearl Harbor I may have sank a Tanker and lost a dozen midget subs by May 1942.

QUESTION?
Can a TF with multiple midgets make more then one attack in a specific hex (i.e. using midgets to help defend a base)?


< Message edited by Coach Zuck -- 1/27/2015 11:18:19 PM >

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RE: Mini subs - 1/27/2015 10:23:14 PM   
wdolson

 

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It was Brady who was the rabid midget fanboy. He was over the moon when he found them in AE.

In a mod, the VPs for a midget can always be tweaked downward if the modder desires.

Bill

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RE: Mini subs - 1/27/2015 10:38:10 PM   
Alfred

 

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Midget subs are best used in 2 situations.

1.  On defence, they can be put in a midget sub TF (which is a subset of a normal sub patrol TF) to provide point defence of a Japanese base.  Their lack of range is not an issue when used as such.

2.  On offence, they can be put in a midget sub carrier TF.  These TFs comprise exactly of 1xmidget sub + 1xcarrier sub (the Japanese have 5 of those only).  They are best used in a port deep behind Allied lines, either catching an unprepared Allied player with no local naval ASW or forcing the deployment of Allied naval ASW far from the frontlines.  The SSX is much more expendable than the mother ship which is why the SSX is sent in to penetrate the harbour whilst the mother ship waits outside of the harbour in relative safety to recover the SSX.

Used properly, SSX impose a significant opportunity cost which is not reflected on the sunk ships list.  SSX also have the benefit of not being produced by the production system.  They cost supply, not Heavy Industry points.

Alfred

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RE: Mini subs - 1/27/2015 11:27:44 PM   
Lowpe

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Zuck


QUESTION?
Can a TF with multiple midgets make more then one attack in a specific hex (i.e. using midgets to help defend a base)?



Great question Coach. I have no idea, they always spawn in groups...I have used them as single ship task forces, and I think that is where I had my one hit with.





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RE: Mini subs - 1/27/2015 11:37:09 PM   
Lowpe

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Midget subs are best used in 2 situations.

1.  On defence, they can be put in a midget sub TF (which is a subset of a normal sub patrol TF) to provide point defence of a Japanese base.  Their lack of range is not an issue when used as such.

This has been my primary use. Once spawned, usually at a detection level of 1, I then segregate the task force by speed creating another midget sub TF. After one day, if they live and their detection levels skyrocket to 10, I disband them back and may create new midget sub TF.


2.  On offence, they can be put in a midget sub carrier TF.  These TFs comprise exactly of 1xmidget sub + 1xcarrier sub (the Japanese have 5 of those only).  They are best used in a port deep behind Allied lines, either catching an unprepared Allied player with no local naval ASW or forcing the deployment of Allied naval ASW far from the frontlines.  The SSX is much more expendable than the mother ship which is why the SSX is sent in to penetrate the harbour whilst the mother ship waits outside of the harbour in relative safety to recover the SSX.

Used properly, SSX impose a significant opportunity cost which is not reflected on the sunk ships list.  SSX also have the benefit of not being produced by the production system.  They cost supply, not Heavy Industry points.

Have yet to try this. I wonder if this tactic can work better with a glen doing some recon in conjunction with the midget sub attack?

Alfred


Thanks!



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RE: Mini subs - 1/28/2015 3:50:04 PM   
Symon


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Hi Alfred,
What’s funny, is that the midget attack on Sydney harbor is represented in the opening day TF designations for the Op-SF scenario. We used the Op-orders and Troms for I-21, 22, 24, 27, 28 and 29. The midgets appear on opening day, where they did. If an Allied player is smart, they will have the same impact they did. Not smart, and there’s a bunch of capital ships just sitting in harbor.

They're a one shot, offensively, for obvious reasons. Defensively, they are an analog of PTs, if you get what I mean.

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RE: Mini subs - 1/28/2015 6:16:00 PM   
Lowpe

 

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I16, I18, I20, I22, I24: The Type C1 Class.

These are the five stock Iboats that can carry minisubs, I believe.

Having never done it, I assume they need to be loaded (task force formed) at a good size port with ample supply.




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RE: Mini subs - 1/28/2015 6:26:00 PM   
Dili

 

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I think i have read while ago there is not possible to have allied midgets submarines. Is this true?

Some examples in Pacific:

From Wiki:
quote:

27 October1944: The British submarine Trenchant carried two Mk 2 Chariots (nicknamed "Tiny" and "Slasher"). Crewed by Sidney Woollcott, Sub lieutenant Tony Aldridge (aboard Tiny), Petty Officer Smith, Able Seaman Brown (aboard Slasher) to an attack on Phuket harbour in Thailand. They were released 6 mi (9.7 km) out from the harbour. The targets were two Italian liners, the Sumatra (attacked by 'Tiny') and the Volpi (attacked by 'Slasher'), each of approximately 5,000 tons. Both ships were put out of action (their masts were visible in Phuket harbour above the water until the early 1970s when the wrecks were salved). Six hours later, for the only time, the British charioteers rode back to their mothership. On the return journey the Trenchant jettisoned the chariots so it could travel faster, after receiving a report of a Japanese MTB in the area. The Trenchant carried the four charioteers back to Trincomalee



quote:

In August 1945, HMS XE1 and XE3 executed a joint attack on Japanese warships within Singapore harbour. XE3 was tasked with mining the heavy cruiser Takao while XE1 was to attack the heavy cruiser Myōkō.
The approach of XE3 along the Straits of Johor and through the various harbour defences took 11 hours plus a further 2 hours to locate the camouflaged target. Despite several opportunities for Japanese defenders to spot the vessel, XE3 successfully reached the Takao, fixed limpet mines and dropped its two, 2-ton side charges. The withdrawal was successfully made and XE3 safely contacted HMS Stygian, the escort submarine. Meanwhile the crew of XE1 had failed to find their target. Instead, and knowing that the explosives already laid could explode, XE1's own charges were also laid under the Takao. XE1 escaped successfully.
The Takao was severely damaged and never sailed again.





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RE: Mini subs - 1/28/2015 11:56:10 PM   
Lowpe

 

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No minisubs that I know about for the Allies.





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RE: Mini subs - 1/29/2015 8:09:27 PM   
Lowpe

 

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Had a little experience with minisubs this last turn, and the fast minisubs are able to attack, they miss, but at least they attack. The slow minisubs pretty much just cower.

This leads me to a working hypothesis: Fast minisubs for base defense; slow minisubs to attack docked ships. Not sure how that will work out, need plenty of experimentation, but I have got probably another year of trying.

According to the manual, speed of the submarine is compared to the cruise speed of the target/(task force?) which helps determine if an attack is made.

So this makes for an additional strategy, flood the area with low detection minisubs, and then put bigger subs around the target hex, hopefully deep water, looking for ships moving into or out the target hex. Hopefully the ASW spends their efforts on the minisubs, allowing a few of the bigger subs an attack or even vice versa....waves of subs to overwhelm the ASW.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 1/29/2015 9:15:43 PM >

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RE: Mini subs - 1/29/2015 9:17:23 PM   
HansBolter


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The AI uses them extensively.

I just had one get into Colombo and put a fish in Renown while it was already in drydock repairing torpedo damage.

On top of that the carrying sub put another fish in Valiant the same turn (which was in the port hex but not docked).

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RE: Mini subs - 1/30/2015 5:50:38 AM   
Hyacinth

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Had a little experience with minisubs this last turn, and the fast minisubs are able to attack, they miss, but at least they attack. The slow minisubs pretty much just cower.

This leads me to a working hypothesis: Fast minisubs for base defense; slow minisubs to attack docked ships. Not sure how that will work out, need plenty of experimentation, but I have got probably another year of trying.

According to the manual, speed of the submarine is compared to the cruise speed of the target/(task force?) which helps determine if an attack is made.

So this makes for an additional strategy, flood the area with low detection minisubs, and then put bigger subs around the target hex, hopefully deep water, looking for ships moving into or out the target hex. Hopefully the ASW spends their efforts on the minisubs, allowing a few of the bigger subs an attack or even vice versa....waves of subs to overwhelm the ASW.



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RE: Mini subs - 1/30/2015 2:53:10 PM   
witpqs


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That formation is too tight. One DC would wipe out half of them!

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RE: Mini subs - 1/31/2015 1:32:30 AM   
Lowpe

 

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Anybody know how much supply is needed at a port to create mini-subs. Is it a base number or is it x2 normal base level requested supply? Does Naval support squads help? Does port size play a part? I have looked in the rules, but find no answers.

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